The truth about October 7: Director Richard Sanders discusses his Al Jaz...

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The truth about October 7: Director Richard Sanders discusses his Al Jazeera film with Peter Oborne


Middle East Eye

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208,352 views Apr 3, 2024“When the Israelis and their supporters are called on to justify the ferocity of their response, which has killed far, far more people than the Hamas incursion… again and again and again, they will talk about babies and they will talk about rapes.” Award-winning journalist and film director Richard Sanders, sits down with Middle East Eye columnist Peter Oborne to discuss his latest film with Al Jazeera’s Investigation Unit (I-Unit) October 7. The film provides a forensic analysis of the Hamas-led attack on Israel that day, revealing human rights abuses committed by Hamas fighters. The months’ long investigation also found that many claims repeated by politicians and western media, including mass rape and killings of babies, were false. Sanders explains that the failure of western media outlets in reporting these claims has been used by Israel to justify its war on Gaza. Watch the Al Jazeera documentary here: • October 7 | Al Jazeera Investigations Subscribe to our channel: http://ow.ly/AVlW30n1OWH Subscribe to MEE Telegram channel to stay up to date: https://t.me/MiddleEastEye_TG Middle East Eye Website: https://middleeasteye.net Follow us on TikTok: / middleeasteye Follow us on Instagram: / middleeasteye Like us on Facebook: / middleeasteye Follow us on Twitter: / middleeasteye



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Transcript

0:06

hello I'm Peter obor columnist for Middle East ey and we have with us today

0:12

Richard Sanders the film director who made the new Al jazer documentary

0:19

October 7th it's a very harrowing and educational

0:24

film based on an enormous amount of material how long did it take you to

0:30

make that film um well I started work on it at the end of October I did a week or two of development work on it at the end

0:36

of October then we we had the whole team up and running early November and then we were pretty much done by the end of

0:42

of February there was Christmas within that but we worked through Christmas for the most part so close to four months

0:49

and the stuff you had to although it was must have been harrowing for you going through the terrible things that

0:56

happened on that day well yes so we Unearthed about 7 hours of footage close to 7 hours of of footage um quite a lot

1:04

of footage which is from the head cams of of dead Hamas Fighters uh which the Israelis um had released um hamas's own

1:12

videos which were of course edited dash cam footage CCTV footage and of course

1:18

inevitably people's phones you know something like this 40 years ago we'd have probably vir no images of it at all

1:24

but the these days everything leaves such a such an imprint so you know as you see in the film you can see it

1:30

happening um my colleague spent a long time he I had a

1:35

colleague who who really put the work into drawing up a list of the dead because that was very important to sort

1:41

of forensically get the numbers and look at the circumstances of each death and really start to pick that apart we based

1:48

it at wet and and haret had their own lists and we combined them and then researched around that but that that was

1:54

an awful lot of work as well but that was very important work because it enabled you to say definitively for

2:01

example that just two babies were killed on the that day and in the light of the

2:09

the the stories which went around the world that 40 babies had been beheaded and you were able just to say two babies

2:15

were killed and and describe the circumstances in which that happened that's right it's it's enormously important you know I'd never say only

2:22

two babies were killed you know obviously that's a tragedy in in itself but the two babies that died one was

2:28

shot uh they they f a bullet through the door of a safe room and it hit the baby the other the mother was hit and there

2:35

was an emergency cesarian and and the baby died so the important thing about the babies is that any story about

2:43

babies which is not about those two specific cases you know it's not true

2:48

and what's interesting there is that there were a lot of stories about babies usually multiple babies cold-bloodedly

2:56

murdered and then mutilated burned and so on and you know this isn't true because you can simply compare it

3:01

against the list of the Dead um and that's enormously important because that immediately flags up to you there is a

3:07

problem with accounts that come from Israeli government officials Israeli Army officials and First Responders I

3:14

think this was the thing that the media here struggled with for a while is you know why wouldn't you believe First Responders I mean if you turn up at an

3:20

accident or a tragedy in in England and the the ambulance man says this to you you don't think well you know um and I

3:27

think this was a problem that it took took British media a while to realize hold on you you have to double check

3:33

what what a lot of these First Responders are saying and these stories though are going on you're still getting

3:38

senior Israeli people uh saying and the British press talking about burned

3:45

babies aren't you the the the babies thing um doubts began to creep in fairly

3:52

quickly and the the 40 B babies most of whom were beheaded was was discredited

3:57

but the LIE gets out there first and then the awareness that this is unreliable is is much slower to spread

4:03

so I think there's still an awful lot of people out there who believe there was the mass killing of babies um although

4:09

the media has pushed back on that a little the the the issue of sexual violence and and widespread and

4:16

systematic rape which is what the Israelis claim is slightly different in that the really until very recently the

4:23

the Israeli narrative there was pretty much accepted uncritically and we really you know our film and the work of one or

4:30

two other people really is just the beginnings of pushing that back against that in the last few days and we can

4:35

talk about this more the last few days that you you can see the beginning of a broader unraveling of that narrative

4:42

that should be very interesting some somebody like me who follows the these

4:47

things without intense detail tell us about just describe factually what's

4:53

gone on with that New York Times story so the New York Times story this was a

4:59

lot of media outlets around the world the New York Times the guardian the BBC all did Big in-depth investigations into

5:06

sexual violence and basically echoed the Israeli claim that it was widespread systematic instrumentalized weaponized

5:13

you know a part of a part of strategy now the New York Times one screams

5:18

without words it was entitled um it begins with the story of a young woman

5:24

who who died 9 miles north of the music festival site her body was filmed

5:29

following night it's Lying by the main roadside um where it she'd been killed

5:35

you know more than 12 hours before um and and you know basically it's very

5:40

clear it's very graphic film she's not wearing any underwear now obviously this is heavily blurred in the version we use

5:46

and and that other people have used um now in frankly in the absence of much

5:53

other Visual Evidence I took this one very very seriously and we looked into this fairly carefully and the um

6:00

the New York Times made it the the the the opening part of their story and about a third of the story relates to

6:05

this and they had a picture of the woman's family and immediately the New York Times published the family came out

6:11

and said hold on we know she wasn't raped and you didn't tell us you were doing a story about sexual violence she

6:18

was texting us until a few minutes before she died also her husband who was with her got on the phone to his brother

6:24

immediately after she died and had quite a lengthy phone conversation with him and no mention of rape at all so you

6:29

know this which was really one of the strongest cases and the ones that where a lot of the Visual Evidence it looked

6:34

pretty vague to me um but that you know this did look stronger it immediately

6:40

evaporated and that that was a was a real problem for the New York Times that was the core of the story now

6:45

subsequently in just in the last couple of days the New York Times itself has reported that another of the stories

6:51

that it told about two sisters who were found who in a way that suggested they'd been raped that this story was entirely

6:57

untrue as well they video has no emerged of their the discovery of their bodies and this is entirely untrue as well and

7:03

the New York Times itself is reporting that perhaps in an attempt to to regain some credibility but they so the the New

7:10

York Times which it attracted a lot of attention came out just after Christmas that story has really unraveled and then

7:16

you know the Revelation um that one of the authors of it had worked for Israeli intelligence um you know which was

7:23

rather odd as well I'd like to draw attention to the BBC's piece actually the BBC did a piece on the 5th of

7:30

December where again it it entirely reproduces the Israeli narrative and

7:36

again when you read it carefully it depends entirely on Israeli government officials um Israeli Army officials and

7:44

First Responders okay again is incredibly thin the the direct evidence

7:50

now just that that BBC article which no one really has focused on um there there

7:57

is an interview with a woman called kav elim Levy who had set up the Civic

8:03

commission to investigate um sexual violence in October the 7th we were becoming

8:08

profoundly skeptical of her there were there were various things about her that rather worried us but the BBC relied

8:14

heavily on her in the last few days um there has been reporting in Israel that the Israeli government is

8:20

distancing itself from her the Civic commission she set up was always a rather odd thing I mean was it a

8:26

government body no in that case what was it I mean it turns out was her on a website for which she has raised $8

8:31

million apparently um so she's a you know she is a a witness that is emerging

8:38

as being or um or a voice that is emerging as being very problematic

8:44

um and then also and this really is extraordinary the BBC speaks at length

8:50

to me Goan who is the Israeli woman's empowerment Minister and you know it has

8:56

a lot of harrowing quotes from meelan Megaland is a right-wing member of a

9:02

very right-wing government um she's on record of saying she is a proud racist

9:07

she has subsequently said that she is proud of the ruins of Gaza I mean to present this woman neutrally as if she

9:15

is some conventional Western politician without any contextualizing at all pres to present

9:21

her as someone who can be trusted in what she says about Palestinians is extraordinary by the BBC quite

9:28

remarkable and and that you know all the focus has been on the New York Times piece but really that December the 5th

9:33

BBC piece and the and the reporting the guardian has done you know really bear some scrutiny as well so the

9:39

BBC um have they have they had these points made to them are they showing any

9:44

signs of having to re-examine no that reporting I mean alternative Media made

9:50

these points on online in social media as always happens you know I think it

9:56

was the gray Zone said well hang on this is who may go is are you really going to

10:01

quote her with no context whatsoever but within mainstream media no no push back at all do you think the BBC ought to

10:09

reexamine its report yes I think should I mean I think everyone's going to have to reexamine um that it was it was an

10:16

extraordinary example of of group think and I think for understandable reasons

10:21

no one wants to deny sexual violence for far too long in Conflict situations sexual violence was ignored and people

10:29

people didn't take it seriously enough and you know I think a lot of the work that has been done over the last 20 30 40 years is enormously important so no

10:37

one you know wants to be on the wrong side of that argument equally there is a

10:42

a very strong tradition of the demonization of men of color by

10:48

portraying them as sexual predators and I think the fear that actually that was part of what was going on here ought to

10:55

have kicked in a bit sooner with some some media um human rights w very very

11:00

serious respectable human rights organization is doing the nearest thing there is to a thorough independent

11:08

investigation into the events of um October the 7th and my understanding is

11:13

their report will be out in a couple of months and I I think it'll be very important to look at that yeah as you say I mean sexual violence there is a

11:20

danger isn't there that it gets overlooked or misunderstood or um there

11:27

some kind of you know something about it which men like you and me might under under under traditionally people have

11:34

you know that people have have played down you know not taken seriously enough

11:40

it's very interesting the last few days we're beginning to see quite detailed accounts of sexual violence against Palestinian women by Israeli soldiers

11:47

and now of course the same applies uh an independent investigation must look into

11:52

this you you don't just accept people's allegations um you know without probing

11:58

them but immediately that stuff feels to me more tangible and concrete I mean you know

12:05

how it is with the story and it was the same with the anti-Semitism thing in the neighbor party when you're trying to pin

12:11

a story down and the closer you get to the heart of the story The vager it appears and the the more the more um

12:19

harder it is to to get the concrete outlines of a story and already with the allegations of rape against Palestinian

12:26

women it feels more tangible and concrete in in that context I was struck

12:31

by the one of your interviewees in in your film meline Ree of the women's

12:39

international league for Peace and Freedom where she um put it rather well didn't she she didn't Tred claim there

12:46

had been no sexual violence but she simply said what what did she tell yeah so the key Point mine was making was

12:52

quite possibly there would have been sexual violence in fact she she suspects there will have been simply because there always is you know young men with

12:58

guns given license to behave badly is what they do um but she made the point that

13:07

for widespread and systematic sexual violence there just is nothing like

13:12

sufficient evidence you would expect far more evidence I'm just a very very quick thing you know this music festival which

13:18

is where the rapes where almost all the allegations of rape center on it's an

13:23

outdoor Festival okay now hundreds of people are killed at that Festival thousands are not you know you know

13:29

there's a lot of people most people survive these ropes are supposedly happening out in the open where where

13:35

are the witnesses you know there's a couple of witnesses one of whom's anonymous you know immediately and I I

13:41

know sometimes people are traumatized sometimes people don't speak for a long time and I I understand all that but it's odd that there aren't more

13:47

witnesses it's it's very odd now now meline I was enormously grateful to meline ree You Know i' spoken to a

13:54

number of people within International women's organizations who who were angry Frank

13:59

The Bullying that was going on by the Israeli government and and people who support the Israeli

14:06

government you know and and and people have to confront threats to their funding you know and I spoke to a number

14:12

of people who were not prepared to go on camera and I absolutely understand why they weren't prepared to go on camera I get it I know why they weren't prepared

14:19

to go on camera but meline was and I'm enorm she she was not only very articulate and and very

14:25

clear um but also simply to have the courage to put head above the parapet is

14:30

enormously Brave in this context the next point which you make towards the

14:35

end of your film of course is that the what what was

14:41

going on with these very lures and terrible Stories being promoted right

14:48

from the word go by Israeli sources and absolutely Amplified in the global media

14:55

particularly the British and American Media I should think is the um what was what what is the effect of it and one of

15:02

your one of your Witnesses Mar oen Jones talked very eloquently about the

15:09

consequences of this course kind of apparently fabricated discourse yes so

15:15

it's very important to say our film is not an apologia for Hamas and other people who who followed them through the

15:21

fence we're absolutely clear that widespread and horrific human rights abuses were committed on the 7th of

15:26

October we're absolutely absolutely clear about that what we're what we're saying is that the the stories that were

15:32

reported for the most part the wholesale Slaughter of babies widespread systematic rape were not true and this

15:39

isn't pedantry this isn't saying all people died in this way not that way those stories are enormously important

15:45

the babies the rapes because when the Israelis and their supporters are called

15:50

on to justify the ferocity of the response uh which has killed far far

15:57

more people than the you know original Hamas incursion when they're called upon to justify that response again and again

16:04

and again they will talk about babies and they will talk about rapes um it's abs and you see this in other historical

16:11

situations where the same thing happens when you need to justify Savage

16:16

repression of a group um if you can dehumanize them if you can reduce them

16:21

to the level of savages to the level of people who are not part of the family of humanity then it's much easier to

16:29

slaughter them you know to carry out the wholesale Slaughter of them and that and and and stories about the the murder and

16:35

mutilation of babies and of of widespread and systematic rape do that they they serve a purpose which is why

16:42

it's important it's not pedantry we're not saying well they died in this way not in that way it's very important um

16:47

the fact that those stories were not true I remember reading the in the days

16:53

when the after the lure the headlines you suddenly got a a certain

16:59

uh withdrawal of the story but the the the papers would say oh but it's still

17:05

look I mean higher they were killed doesn't matter the fact is they were and it was barbaric who anybody who tries to

17:12

sort of quibble about the details really there something wrong with them yes I mean with babies that was particular

17:18

does it matter if they were beheaded or just shot I mean the point was you know they weren't killed in anything like the

17:23

numbers that was being claimed and there was no mutilation going on it is different I mean two babies who are killed

17:30

um you know I don't want to belittle it if you you you you shoot a bullet through a door where there might be a

17:36

family on the other side you you know you are responsible for the fact that that bullet is hit a baby um the the

17:43

bedin woman in fact who was shot she was in her car at you know they were just fired at the car you know it's not to

17:49

excuse people but they it was not the coldblooded murder of someone standing over a baby and then taking the decision

17:55

to to to kill it um so you know it was it was significant these stories were

18:01

not true it was important and it informs then of course the genocidal language

18:07

which you start to get again very quickly from leading military Human

18:12

animals for instance comparisons of Isis I think we started to get at that stage and marar Rubio says in our film you

18:19

can't you can't negotiate with these Savages and so you're just framing a

18:25

situation where the only opt only option is just to kill really and it's it's

18:31

profoundly important psychologically and emotionally um people just do relate

18:37

very differently to the suffering of people they have decided are savages than they do to to the suffering of

18:42

people who are like us you know what I mean it it it plays a very important role of course one other point you know

18:49

the these stories of mass rape and the beheading of babies and uh has have

18:57

therefore one is it POS is it fair to say licensed or

19:02

created a situation where 9,000 women have been killed none of them competence yeah that's right I mean most of the

19:08

victims in the Gaza Strip are women and children in fact the peculiarity of the

19:14

casualty statistics we produce which no one has picked up on actually is that more women are dying than men now that

19:21

that well more women are being reported dead than men which might be the peculiarity of who it is that makes it

19:26

to a hospital I mean the the death to in Gaza at the moment is a massive underestimate because of you there are

19:32

so many bodies under the rubble so many um so you know they simply can't count

19:39

the dead anymore but um so the death to that's interesting the death toll so far which is 32,000 approximately well that

19:46

that's the confirmed dead it'll be much higher than that and that is confirmed go through the you looked at the these

19:51

procedures well this is from the you know the the health ministry's figures now again this is a thing the the um

19:58

Western media always says the Hamas controlled Health Ministry the World Health Organization the Lancet The

20:04

Washington Post Human Rights Watch they've all done thorough analysis of the the gazen health ministry's figures

20:10

and looked at previous conflicts and they're they're absolutely reliable they're absolutely reliable there is no

20:17

need to be attaching this this sort of health warning to them and so no I we we

20:23

take our figures from the Garen Health Ministry because there's there's no reason not to the key thing to say about

20:28

those figures is they will be a massive underestimate you know a lot of bodies are still under the rubble the Israelis

20:34

have been attacking hospitals it's you know it's become harder and harder to actually just keep the bureaucracy of

20:40

Health going and Counting the dead but also when they produce the lists of the dead and so you'll know more more about

20:45

this than me so Arabic names all all all all Arabic people have four names and

20:51

you have the and included in that is the father's name and the grandfather's name um and you also have the identity card

20:57

number so it's extraordinary that the health Ministry was continuing to be able to

21:03

produce these figures but they're also very very checkable and in past conflicts um outside organizations like

21:09

the World Health Organization and so on have gone back and checked them and found them to be absolutely

21:14

reliable just just while I'm on it actually the other thing that he's always said is um Hamas hides behind

21:22

civilians okay now it's well worth going back and reading the Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International reports for

21:29

2009 and 2014 when similar things happened and they they don't uncover a

21:35

widespread pattern of Hamas using human shields in fact there is there is you know good

21:42

evidence that the Israelis use Palestinian civilians as as human Shields and again this is just repeated

21:48

every time on British media with no one pushing back at all it's worth saying actually in this context you have

21:54

extensive um experience of reporting from Iraq for instance on Iraq 20 years

22:00

ago it was exactly the same everyone said that that the fedin were hiding behind civilians and I went to all the places where all the battles took place

22:05

and I knocked on doors and it just wasn't true it just wasn't true one question I'd like to ask you I mean

22:13

what's been the reaction in the western media to your very powerful film it's

22:19

been entirely ignored it's been absolutely ignored hasn't been picked up at all which which we rather expect I me

22:24

it's very odd though they they they work on the assumption that if they don't pick it up no one knows about it but

22:30

these days you with social media um you know these things have widespread

22:35

circulation and people are aware of it and people notice people notice that the BBC and

22:41

the guardian and so on are not telling these stories and it's h it's it's a problem you know it's a problem in that

22:49

you know to a degree and and by degrees and gradually and slowly these these institutions lose lose credibility and

22:55

the the the figures for the The public's confidence and faith in the BBC are terrifying you quite a lot of what you

23:02

did was newsworthy for above all perhaps that you know that you're you're

23:07

discrediting of of the testimony of Yosi it's hugely hugely newsworthy it

23:14

couldn't be more newsworthy I mean I think it's worth I just want to say here that the sexual violence thing in

23:21

particular is a case study in the absolute abject failure of traditional

23:26

media you know we've talked about Guardian the BBC and the New York Times but there were many others as well and

23:32

the research here has been entirely dependent on Independent Media and I

23:38

think it's it's important to name them because to a degree I piggyback on them I we we we were doing our own very important research as well uh in

23:45

parallel to them but but you know they they were doing invaluable stuff we're talking mov we're talking gry Zone we're

23:51

talking electronic into F we're talking the intercept and we're talking YES magazine to some extent had its

23:58

newspaper in Israel as well you know to to actually grasp the truth of what

24:05

happened particularly on the sexual violence issue you had to read those Outlets you you couldn't possibly rely on on traditional media The Times of

24:11

Israel had some interesting stuff I read about the hanal doctrine well the the

24:17

the Israeli media has filled a gap where Israel where where Israeli lives are are

24:22

the issue so the Hannibal Doctrine this um practice traditionally the Israeli

24:28

military has had of rather than allowing two three four soldiers to fall into enemy hands and become bargaining trips

24:35

they say kill everyone kill everyone you know which is clearly something that they've done in the past with soldiers um the reporting in yot arut Israeli

24:43

newspaper um was that at midday on the 7th the the Israeli military issued a

24:49

variation of the Hannibal directive and we we've examined um gun camera footage

24:55

from Apache helicopters in great detail and there's also stories of of when the Army and the the anti-terrorism police

25:01

entered the kutes of their behavior and it's clear this is the case now um and

25:07

again the running has been made there by Israeli media I Israeli media has not been good on the baby's stories it's not

25:13

been good on the sexual violence stor but on on the issue of where Israeli lives are concerned they have been good

25:18

and they've made the running largely ignored uh in the west just want to say there there is there has been a tendency

25:24

on social media to for people to pick up that story and run with it and say most of those who Di died on on October the

25:30

7th were killed by the Israeli Army it's not it's not true I mean I think a significant number were killed by the

25:35

Israeli Army but it's it's not half or or even anything remotely close to half just to your your film has the numbers

25:43

if they're on your head you might just go through them how many people were killed because

25:48

originally it was 1400 wasn't it the Israelis initially said what what do we now just break down the numbers as yeah

25:54

so we we have um we break it down on our film and it's it's a little under 12200

25:59

in the end the the the number the Israelis ended up with isn't isn't wildly inaccurate um I think it's 782 of

26:06

them um are civilians 36 of them are children uh 13 of them are children

26:13

under uh the age of of 12 um in terms of the friendly fire because there seems to

26:19

be a great appetite to put specific numbers on this so let me make this very clear we reckon 18 people are almost

26:26

certainly killed by is ground troops we know at least one person is killed by

26:32

helicopter fire um on helicopter fire we identified 27 other people who are taken

26:38

hostage taken away from their homes but are dead before they reached the fence and we just don't know how they died um

26:45

there was a lot of amateurism in the way the bodies were collected and recorded which is a big problem which we we'll

26:50

never be able to overcome you can't replace that information so of those 27 dead you know it's quite possible a fair

26:57

number were killed bachy helicopters we just don't know um with ground troops I

27:02

have a suspicion a number of people were killed in cars as they ran into roadblocks again we can't know because

27:08

they're all dead um I I my guess would be I mean again going back to Iraq 20 years ago that was happening all the

27:14

time the Americans were shooting people running into roadblocks um within the kutes you you know you look look at

27:22

kafara and kib ber and so on and the media was full of pictures of these kib

27:28

kibot in the days after October the 7th and you just had to look at them and think well hold on the the Hamas

27:35

Fighters had sidearms and they had rocket grenades but they didn't have anything that would do that um and it's

27:41

clear the Israelis came in very aggressively and a lot of houses were destroyed by the Israelis now I'm sure

27:48

you know on the whole they would have taken care to checked there weren't

27:53

hostages in there but we know from various stories that that wasn't always the case a lot bodies are discovered

27:59

under the rubble of houses and we just don't know how they died so we have this figure of 18 people we are you know

28:06

we're almost certain are killed by Israeli Ground Forces as they go into the kibot seam but the actual figure

28:12

will be a fair bit higher than that but again not not you know we're not in the hundreds or anything remotely like that

28:18

but it'll be a fair bit higher than that figure very quickly on on damage to houses in kibot

28:25

um the gunmen were burning houses hous down because they were trying to smoke people out of their safe rooms so when

28:31

you see burned out houses that quite often is the result of of Hamas action

28:36

but when you see houses that are destroyed clearly by heavy Weaponry that are not burned they're simply flattened

28:41

then that would have been done by the Israeli Army yeah it's very heavy story it's very I must say it must have been

28:48

gring beyond belief to go through that kind of material yes it was I mean you know as I

28:54

say I watched over seven hours of it and my my my colleague uh colleagues um you know looked in detail

29:00

at every death um I think it's a source of enormous frustration the the amateurishness of zacha which we'll come

29:07

to this organization that the Israelis zacha is the um organization in Israel

29:13

which goes to Terror atrocities or to public sort of

29:19

disasters and takes the looks after the dead is that right and prepares them for burial yes it's a religious thing uh the

29:25

the Israeli government has this slightly unusual arangement where it Farms this out to them partly for religious reasons

29:32

I think um and they are an organization of ultra Orthodox volunteers and I think

29:38

the first thing to say is they were just overwhelmed on October the 7th they were not prepared for something on this scale they were overwhelmed and I think they

29:44

were quite often traumatized um but but it the bodies were not properly

29:49

photographed in csue not properly recorded it's enormously frustrating for for the families of many of the Dead

29:55

that they they simply don't know exactly how when where their relatives died so

30:00

you know the work we've done minutely picking apart I think there's this frustration that we can't come up with a

30:06

more specific figure for the number killed by aache helicopters and Israeli tanks and so on but it's just impossible

30:12

because the data data just isn't there so was it was zacha

30:19

making honest mistakes or in because it was overwhelmed or because quite a lot

30:25

of that statements were absolutely like 20 baby two piles of 10 dead babies just

30:32

run through yes Z United he zala is another organization you also have Israeli military officials now they they

30:39

they give a lot of information that turns out to be false I think to there's an element to which they're traumatized they're overwhelmed they don't really

30:45

understand what they're looking at they're not forensically trained there is an element of that but when Colonel vac stands in front of that house in ber

30:52

where where all of the hostages were actually killed almost certainly by the Israeli Army and police

30:58

he stands in front of that house and said eight babies burned and killed I took them out with my own hands there

31:03

were no babies no babies at all now you know you can draw your own conclusions as to why he's saying that but it's very

31:09

hard to see it as as a a mistake so why do zacha and the other um and the the

31:15

Israeli military tell these stories and there's confusion and genuine mistakes yes but but others it's it's clear they

31:23

not true it's clear they not true um now we have a sequence in the film where you see Ben Benjamin Netanyahu thanking

31:30

zacha Volunteers in December thanking them for for talking to the international media and he effectively

31:35

says this is another front in the war the information front um zacha also was

31:40

an organization in trouble its founder had been um found guilty of of child

31:46

sexual abuse and there had been some funding scandals as well it was an organization in trouble and it has

31:52

raised a lot of money since October the 7th and um you know the various

31:58

representatives of zacha go on speaking to us and so on and they they tell the stories of what happened on October 7th

32:04

whether there is a correlation between the types of stories they tell and the amount of money they get I I don't know that's for people to make their own

32:11

judgment one other one last thing I really found very instructive about your

32:17

film and this was the Epic scale of the

32:22

intelligence failure it's not just what I I knew we knew about which was the the

32:28

warnings from Egypt um and the fact that you know it

32:33

was going on in plain sight the train training was going on in plain sight and they would put the videos online yeah

32:40

that was quite uh but the fact that that 2:00 that morning unusual activity was

32:46

detected on October the 7th yes I mean it's hubris isn't it um there was Shin B

32:52

met they didn't just sort of have tele telephone conversations did they actually it might have been a zoom

32:58

meeting a zoom be meeting but it was it was shim and Military Intelligence they met up no I mean as so often with these

33:05

things it's not lack of information it's a bit like 911 you know in retrospect you could join all the dots the information was there is the

33:11

interpretation of the evidence now the Israelis had or reportedly had the Hamas

33:17

plan um but just because people have plans for something and have prepared to do do something doesn't mean they're going to do it and the Israeli the I

33:24

think the Israeli analysis was they were whistling in the dark this was Hamas keeping its courage up you know sort of motivating the troops and what have you

33:31

they thought Hamas was contained they thought Hamas was mut they have this meeting at 2: in the morning or 3: in

33:37

the morning where which is important obviously the information they were getting was the

33:44

young spotters along the fence who were often young women were were were saying hang on there's something going on here

33:49

and it was sign significant enough to have a meeting but then they didn't put on on as a general alert what is

33:55

unforgivable when you have word that some something's going on is not even to have raised to alert level one there was

34:02

no alert level sent out at all okay um now okay they might have underestimated

34:07

it they might have thought we don't take this seriously but they could have at least put the word around the numerous military bases around the Gaza Strip

34:14

that you know just be be on alert they didn't the music festival you know

34:19

crucially continued through the night and was still going on at 6:00 in the morning when when all this kicked off

34:25

and um and at the various military you can see it a lot of them are killed in their beds yeah and you had that footage also

34:32

of of of armored cars which hasn't haven't been they're absolutely taken by

34:37

surprise it's a total shock to them which given that Shin batan Military

34:42

Intelligence had enough information that they were talking to each other in the middle of the night that there are then

34:48

soldiers 4 hours later who are killed in their beds is unforgivable really no I I

34:54

think your film is will become one of the definitive accounts of what

35:01

happened why was it left to you Al jazer to make this film and not done by the

35:07

you know the Sunday Times Insight unit who have done it's a good question BC verify which is that's what is

35:13

apparently about Etc what's going on there I don't know and I don't know I mean would 20 30 years ago would this

35:20

film type of film be made I think I think quite possibly it fits in with this I mean you know you and I have been

35:26

mainstream media journalists most of our Lives I've made over 20 dispatches you've made many dispatches I think on

35:31

the whole we we haven't felt ourselves censored you know when we've tackled phone hacking or or uh the war in

35:39

Afghanistan which I did in the war in Iraq I've never felt myself censored Western media has a peculiar problem

35:45

with with covering Israel there's just a peculiar conceptual problem it struggles

35:50

with and um you know I'm not one of these people who thinks you can never

35:55

believe a word these buggers say and they're all in a conspiracy to deceive us I don't believe that but they do struggle to cover

36:02

Israel and the fact that there's been total media Silence about the very significant

36:10

discoveries uh in your film tells us a great deal and we come back to the previous thing you and I work together

36:16

on which is the labor files where you have the same thing now that you know part of what you're revealing is the

36:23

inadequate decides not to cover it yes we yes I was in your I I gave evidence

36:29

didn't I Al it was a voice in your film which was about um

36:34

the the truth about the Corin the Corbin anti-Semitism crisis yes I mean the labor FS was a series based on a leak of

36:42

the entire labor party server to to Al jazer and it was a reexamination of uh the Corbin years and

36:50

the the the failings of main of traditional media and covering the Corbin years my specific film for which

36:56

you gave an interview was uh offering an alternative perspective on the

37:01

anti-Semitism crisis above all drawing on on Jewish people most of the voices

37:06

in that film were Jewish people who who supported Israel and crucially don't support sorry Jewish people who

37:12

supported Corbin and and crucially who don't support Israel which is what

37:18

actually turned out to be the key deter and also Palestinian voices which just never got found their way into the

37:23

debate at all yeah and once again I I felt that a lot of what was disclosed in your

37:32

film is just ignored by and it does upset me you know I kind of when I went

37:39

into the British journalism I believed we were our job was to be fearless and

37:45

tell difficult truths and to tell the truth as best as we could get at it and

37:52

those the the the the the your film about October the 7th and then your film

37:57

earlier about the labor file suggest that is quite the opposite that the this media has an aversion to difficult

38:05

truths and will either ignore it or seek to discredit it or we're talking about

38:10

very you know the great media organizations of our age too like the BBC or the mainstream broadsheet

38:17

newspapers in our country and so on it's interesting isn't it you're a conservative I'm not but I'm you know

38:22

I'm not I'm not particularly Lefty and and and I think you know neither of us

38:28

are people who are predisposed to think that there's a great conspiracy of the media to to deceive people and but I

38:33

think the motivation of yourself and me in in looking at the Corbin years and and and looking at this story is just a

38:40

frustration with how bad the journalism is it's just terrible

38:46

journalism it's I think you used a phrase earlier on about it's her mentality isn't it there is a h

38:51

mentality and then there's also just a a basic conceptual problem with Israel I

38:58

mean when you when you went back to the Corbin thing basically they redefined anti Zionism as anti-Semitism I mean it

39:03

was fairly simple and once you've done that of course you saw anti-semites everywhere because a lot of you

39:09

know people who who take the view of Amnesty International Human Rights Watch and the Israeli human rights

39:15

organization bet selum that Israel is is an aparte state if you take that for you

39:21

you're you're going to be hostile to Zionism and if you have redefined hostility to Zionism as anti semitism

39:27

yes of course you're going to find anti-sites everywhere the other thing actually is that I think something has

39:33

changed in our national discourse if you go back 20 to 30 years

39:39

there was a there was an appetite for difficult films which would reframe

39:44

events and now it's all there's an appetite for films which or reporting

39:51

which simply amplifies the existing yes people seem to like to be very nervous of something which challenges is the

39:57

prevailing narrative don't they it's it's quite strange um which is one reason why the

40:04

world needs to watch my film to watch October the 7th and to read I would' say

40:10

Middle East eye and the other uh Outlets which you mentioned mention them again the ones yes I me the ones that I've

40:16

relied on heavily particularly in or you know the ones who alongside us were

40:22

re-exploring the sexual violence issue it's The Intercept did really excellent work yes magazine I'm not quite sure who

40:29

they are actually but they produced a very long very good piece Mondo Vis gry

40:35

Zone and electronic inada haret which is a leftwing Israeli newspaper did some

40:40

good stuff as well and um it's been really fascinating

40:46

telling that this conversation not just telling us only about October the 7th

40:52

harrowing there that information is but also about the wider media coverage of

40:57

of of what has gone on ever since thank you very much thank

41:09

you

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