BR Myers: the Unloved Republic/ David Tizzard TV

0:02 / 1:59:20
•
Introductions

BR Myers: Korea's Ethnonationalism and the Unloved Republic


David Tizzard22.4K subscribers


1,055 views Jun 1, 2024 SEOUL

사랑받지 못하는 공화국 (2024) was written by Professor Bryan Myers, a professor of international studies at Dongseo University in Busan. Anyone familiar with North Korean studies will be keenly aware of Myers and his work as he has written some excellent books on that subject, including The Cleanest Race and North Korea's Juche Myth. His latest book reveals two firsts: It’s his first written in Korean and it's his first that deals with South Korean politics. Myers has said that "the book's original thrust is the argument that the right neglected / still neglects the work of state-building, but most young people, being centrist or progressive, are just not interested in that issue." We’ll try and see if he achieved that or not. The book: https://product.kyobobook.co.kr/detai... Myers' Blog: https://sthelepress.com/ In this conversation we are joined by Jacco Zwetsloot, host of the NK News Podcast, Park Kyunghoon (Charlie) for the third time, and Ko Eunbi from Seoul Women's University. NK News podcast: https://www.nknews.org/category/north... Jacco's Twitter: / jaccozed 

Discussion Outline

  0:00 Introductions 1:35 Do Koreans know when their republic began? 10:45 Is South Korea a republic or a nation? 27:55 The sinking of the ROKS Cheonan 33:45 Who are North Korea? 43:10 Korea as Anti-Japanese 1:04:00 Park Chung-hee as a benevolent dictator? 1:16:34 The American hegemony of Korean Studies 1:19:52 Reading Korean history written by a foreigner 1:28:30 Personal narratives 1:34:00 Does the SK left love North Korea? 1:41:30 Closing thoughts 1:55:40 Tattoos Korea Deconstructed by David Tizzard ▶ Get in touch: datizzard@swu.ac.kr ▶ Support us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=62047873 ▶ Watch us on Youtube: /davidtizzard ▶ Find us on Insta: / koreadeconstructed ▶ Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/kr/podcast... ▶Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5zdXkG0... ▶ Listen on podcasts: https://koreadeconstructed.libsyn.com/ ▶ Music: Fighting by Disorientalz






Chapters

View all







Introductions
0:00



Do Koreans know when their republic began?
1:35


Is South Korea a republic or a nation?
10:45


The sinking of the ROKS Cheonan
27:55


Who are North Korea?
33:45


Korea as Anti-Japanese
43:10


Park Chung-hee as a benevolent dictator?
1:04:00


The American hegemony of Korean Studies
1:16:34


Transcript


Follow along using the transcript.

Show transcript
====

AU

Skip navigation

Search

Avatar image

1:40:22 / 1:59:20

•

Does the SK left love North Korea?

BR Myers: Korea's Ethnonationalism and the Unloved Republic

David Tizzard

22.4K subscribers

Subscribed

32

Share

Download

1,055 views  Jun 1, 2024  SEOUL

사랑받지 못하는 공화국 (2024) was written by Professor Bryan Myers, a professor of international studies at Dongseo University in Busan. Anyone familiar with North Korean studies will be keenly aware of Myers and his work as he has written some excellent books on that subject, including The Cleanest Race and North Korea's Juche Myth. His latest book reveals two firsts: It’s his first written in Korean and it's his first that deals with South Korean politics. 

Myers has said that "the book's original thrust is the argument that the right neglected / still neglects the work of state-building, but most young people, being centrist or progressive, are just not interested in that issue." We’ll try and see if he achieved that or not. 

The book: https://product.kyobobook.co.kr/detai... 

Myers' Blog: https://sthelepress.com/ 

In this conversation we are joined by Jacco Zwetsloot, host of the NK News Podcast, Park Kyunghoon (Charlie) for the third time, and Ko Eunbi from Seoul Women's University. 

NK News podcast: https://www.nknews.org/category/north... 

Jacco's Twitter:   / jaccozed   

Discussion Outline 

0:00 Introductions 

1:35 Do Koreans know when their republic began? 

10:45 Is South Korea a republic or a nation? 

27:55 The sinking of the ROKS Cheonan 

33:45 Who are North Korea? 

43:10 Korea as Anti-Japanese 

1:04:00 Park Chung-hee as a benevolent dictator? 

1:16:34 The American hegemony of Korean Studies 

1:19:52 Reading Korean history written by a foreigner 

1:28:30 Personal narratives 

1:34:00 Does the SK left love North Korea? 

1:41:30 Closing thoughts 

1:55:40 Tattoos 

Korea Deconstructed by David Tizzard 

▶ Get in touch: datizzard@swu.ac.kr 

▶ Support us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=62047873 

▶ Watch us on Youtube: /davidtizzard 

▶ Find us on Insta:   / koreadeconstructed   

▶ Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/kr/podcast... 

▶Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5zdXkG0... 

▶ Listen on podcasts: https://koreadeconstructed.libsyn.com/ 

▶ Music: Fighting by Disorientalz

Chapters

View all

Transcript

Follow along using the transcript.

Show transcript

David Tizzard

22.4K subscribers

Videos

About

13 Comments

Sejin Lifeforce 生命

Add a comment...

Pinned by David Tizzard

@KingKyong

1 month ago

Thank you for having me on -  Enjoyed being on the podcast! I urge everyone to read this book, even though it tackles some difficult concepts and issues, it is very accessible and easy to read!

3

Reply

@jwhan2086

1 month ago

Charlie's experience in the ROK army is interesting, as much as the topic itself is. Even though I was born in Seoul, South Korea, I often found myself odd with my fellows in the army. This was because I have a Northerner identity. Of course, it is hard to compare the experience of a self-identified Northerner born in the South to that of a South Korean citizen born in New Delhi when they were doing military service. But still interesting to listen to the story of Charlie who was born and raised in a different cultural background and then forced to join a cult named the Army.

On the topic, interestingly, I say "Our republic(우리 공화국)" referring to the Republic of Korea. In English, I prefer saying "I'm from the Republic of Korea," especially when I was in the UK and asked where I came from. (But usually, I had to explain I meant South Korea, often adding the South is the good Korea where Samsung or LG coming from, while the North is the Kim's one.) And I do also do it in Korean, since I believe in republicanism(I'm not talking about the American conservative party, but a political idea). But it is true that saying "our republic" is hardly accepted by my family and friends, partially because republicanism has only a tiny place to stand in the South Korean two-party political system - no one's friends could be everyone's enemy, really.

Clearly, the South Korean public is reluctant to talk about the foundation of the Republic, because it has always been a subject of controversy. I support the 1919 theory, which is an idea that the Republic of Korea founded in 1919 as the result of the First March movement. So I often argue that we should call the 1st of March "Independence Day" because we declared it that day, and on the day we must celebrate the newborn of the Republic in Korean history. But this sort of opinion is not so popular. My hardliner conservative father and some of my conservative friends blame me for being an accomplice of pro-North Korea propagandists (I still don't understand their logic). On the other hand, my other friends who are so-called progressive or so-called liberal sometimes oppose my idea because some parts of my argument acknowledge Rhee Seung-man as the first president of the Republic. Oh God.

In this sense, the Korean narrative of history seems to be mostly designed to work as a tool for domestic politics. That's why I sometimes insist "History has not yet become history in Korea. It is still a politics."

Since I support republicanism, I welcome and support immigrants' rights. So, having an ethno-based national identity is, in my opinion, something we should oppose. And in this context, I see the overall environment has become much more comfortable. But the North Korean issue is a really tricky question. I'm really in favour of the reunification, or I say, "The Third Unification," more precisely. I have been developing five arguments to support it, and one of the arguments is closely linked to national identity. But more and more ethnic-based national identity would be eradicated, more and more Koreans would become less interested in the unification, or even some would oppose the idea. Family ties to those in the North would fade away over time. But cultural, ethnic, and linguistic ties will remain as strong in the future(and it was the argument of Prof. John Delury on his idea of why Korean would want to have unification). So I see there is a potential challenge for South Korea over this issue

Here's my question.

As a scholar and Korea watcher, what do you think how South Korean society will respond to this challenge?

4

Reply

David Tizzard

·

3 replies

@reehelen

1 month ago (edited)

Daehanminguk is the name of ROK in Korean, as Joseon was that of the Joseon Dynasty in the 1700s for the people of Korean Peninsula. Republic is a political system or a ruling type of a country and for the Daehanminguk it is a State up until now in my humble view. Therefore, the Book title should be reconsidered. Otherwise 

2

Reply

David Tizzard

·

1 reply

@DavidTizzard

1 month ago

I understood that some people referred to it as the Yi Dynasty until about 3 decades ago...

Certainly many of the old history books I read say that...

Reply

@samanthav3141

1 month ago

I think Koreans feel like Korea's origin is ancient. Her primordial myths come from somewhere.  The date South Korea became a nation is the day of separation. On some level, it's recent, a source of national trauma and psychologically avoided...I think maybe but not sure.

3

Reply

David Tizzard

·

1 reply

@jayh8435

1 month ago

잘 봤습니다. 모든 논점에 대해서 몇 가지 의견을 내고 싶지만 그건 의미가 없을 것 같네요. 다만 젊은 한국인 친구가 말하는 한국인들은 증오를 사랑하는 것 같다는 말에 일면 동의하지만 사실 그건 어쩌면 모든 인간의 본성이라서 미국도 영국도 심지어 아프리카도 마찬가지라 생각합니다. 좀 쓸데없는 자조적 생각이란 의견을 가져봅니다. 다만 이런 질문을 던지고 싶네요.

혹시 영국이 지배한 식민지 국가 인도를 식민지가 끝나고 열등한 민족이라고 영국 본국에서 차별하고 무시한 일이 있었나요? 혹은 정치인들이 나와서 인도인들은 정말 극도로 싫어 이런 적이 있었나 궁금하네요.

혹여 프랑스가 아프리카인들이 자국에 와서 살면 국가적으로 차별하고 관리하고 무시한 적이 있었나요?

혹은 독일이 폴란드인들을 본국에서 차별한 적이 있었나요?

그런데 사실 일본은 한국인들에게 해방이 되고 나서 아주 오랫동안 지문을 날인하고 그것에 따라 한국인이란 피를 가지면 일본 사회에서 살기 힘들게 사회적으로 지속적인 박해를 하고 욕하고 힘들게 한 게 사실입니다. 

그리고 혹시 저기 세 나라의 예처럼 그들은 인도의 문화와 아프리카의 문화와 폴란드의 문화를 정신까지 박살내고 없애려고 했나요? 이를테면 창씨개명처럼 말이죠. 물론 언어를 프랑스어나 영어를 사용하게 했다는 것은 인정하지만..

제 아버지 세대는 다들 일본어를 사용했고, 저도 일상생활에서 어렸을 때는 일본 단어를 심심찮게 사용했죠. 그때 어른들은 다들 "조선놈들은 다 병신 같아 역시 일본놈들 따라가려면 멀었어." 이랬죠. 어느 순간 자국민에 대한 열등감으로 가득찼던 순간이 있었어요. 하다못해 김치나 된장을 먹는 우리 민족이 진짜 열등한 민족이구나 생각하는 그런 시대도 있었어요. 즉 자존감의 상실이 식민지의 결과물이었죠.

전 이런 것들이 다른 다른 식민지 국가와 다른 outlier가 된 게 아닌가 생각합니다.  

아무튼 동지란 단어를 쓴 젊은 출연자 분에게 약간 놀랬고,  문재인 대통령이 반일을 아주 정치적으로 잘 이용했다는 생각도 듭니다.  전 한국이 더 발전하기 위해서는 일본과 협력 관계로 나아가야 한다고 봅니다. 이제는 과거는 청산할 필요가 있다고 봅니다.  좌파 정치인들이 세월호나 이태원이나 일본 이슈와 같은 것으로 정치적으로 이용하는 것을 보고 싶지 않네요. 지금 한국 정치는 좌파는 양의 탈을 쓴 늑대고, 우파는 병신의 탈을 쓴 병신이란 생각이 들긴 합니다.

4

Reply

David Tizzard

·

1 reply

@DavidTizzard

1 month ago

우리 대화에 참여 하고 있기 때문에 감사합니다. 모든 의견들이 중요하다고 생각합니다. 특히 당신은 젊은 국민들을 목소리와 생각을 잘 듣고 당신의 개인적인 관점을 나눴습니다. 일반적으로 저는 일본 사람들을 좋아하고 일본 문화도 좋아합니다. 그래도 당신의 말 한 것은 맞는 것 같습니다. 정치인들이 그럼 이슈를 유명세를 위해서 자주 사용하는 것 같습니다.

2

Reply

@eriksvensson6054

1 month ago

Koreas ethno-nationalism is based

2

Reply

David Tizzard

·

1 reply

@DavidTizzard

1 month ago

af

1

Reply

Transcript

Search in video

Introductions

0:01

I don't think there's anyone that I came across in the Army who was like I'm doing this for my country like when you

0:08

wake up at 6:30 and you sing the national anthem no one's singing it proudly no one's singing at all

0:15

sometimes so uh it's never for the Republic and it's there's no Pride

0:21

involved coming back to the K Korean South Koreans tend not to say U they say

0:30

yeah they don't say Ur North Koreans say Ur it also left me with some questions

0:37

about how Korea was like relying on the US and how it might be risky in the

0:42

future and and I also thought what I was what I'm supposed to do as a Korean

0:50

citizen those who cannot paint gray cannot be a painter and this also

0:55

applies to historians that historians who cannot be Gray should not be

1:02

historians I would encourage both un and Charlie to to popularize the phrase Ur

1:08

use it obviously obviously David I it's forbidden for us we can't possibly say it because we are not citizens we are

1:14

not men we're not citizens of the G we're not but you two I would like to to

1:21

beseech you to popularize that pH make your friends and parents and and and loved ones say it and then maybe it'll

1:27

catch on and maybe it'll start to get the love it Des

1:34

deserves today on the career deconstructed podcast we're discussing a newly released

Do Koreans know when their republic began?

1:40

book is written by Professor Brian Meers a professor of international studies at tongo University in Busan and anyone

1:48

familiar with North Korean studies will be keenly aware of Mr Myers and his work as he has written some excellent books

1:54

on that subject including the cleanest race and the J mith when he speaks and gives interviews there's normally great

2:00

interest in his work and at the same time he's Elusive and an enigmatic figure as well as being no stranger to

2:07

strong opinions online his latest book reveals two first it's his first written in Korean and it's his first that deals

2:13

primarily with South Korean politics Professor Myers has said that the book's original thrust is the

2:18

argument that the right neglected and still neglects the work of State Building but most young people being

2:24

Centrist or Progressive are just not interested in that issue we're going to try and see if he's achieved that or not

2:30

to discuss the book we are joined by a friend Mr Jacko Zeto host of the enk news podcast a gentleman with a keen

2:36

knowledge and interest of all things Korean good to see you Jacko nice to be back again thank you with him we have

2:42

Charlie kyunghun returning for the third time he's previously talked about time in the South Korean military and life in

2:48

Soul Charlie it's great to be back thank you thank you and for the first time by go and be University student here in so

2:55

Hello nice to meet you very good um so we're filled with we've filled all the seats of the table I hope by having

3:02

foreign Korean young old male and female voices covering a range of perspectives

3:07

now uh reading this book we all have a copy of it here on the table the first thing that we're going to start with is

3:13

something that caught my attention which is about the idea of History central part of this book and it's the idea that

3:20

South Korea is seen through the lens of an ancient territory where as North Korea is seen through the lens of its

3:25

modern political system and Brian professor Myers he makes this claim in

3:31

the book that Koreans don't know when the start of their Republic is the start of their country and most the majority

3:40

of Americans know Fourth of July and things like this right it's it's etched into their culture and when I saw this

3:46

idea that Korean people don't know when Dean minguk the the Republic of Korea started I I took a step back and thought

3:52

no surely that's not right I asked the people in my house I didn't ask my brother-in-law cuz he's in the military

3:59

and I didn't want to say didn't know I asked the people in my house and they all none of them knew I then went to my

4:04

classrooms and asked some students I then went to the pub and asked some people there um I asked the owner of

4:09

this studio none of them knew and I was kind of shocked by that when I asked

4:15

these people when did South Korea start there were loads of different answers but none of them were the right answer

4:21

and I knew the answer and I'm sure many other professors and and people might but Korean people didn't can I start

4:28

like with this question for you that seems to be framing a lot of my's work

4:33

what's your take on this does it match your experience uh are we do people know when Korea

4:40

started lead us off Jacko I'm going to answer your question with a with another question do Korean people care when the

4:48

Republic started and I think that one to me is is a clear no that that Koreans

4:54

it's not like they're confused and some are walking around saying it definitely started in 1919 no you it started 1948

5:00

come here we'll have a fight about it Koreans don't talk about it they don't care now uh similarly in Australia if

5:07

you were to where I grew up if you would ask most Australians when did Australia change from being a colony to a nation

5:13

when did Australia get nationhood a lot of Australians if they thought about it they might remember oh yes it was

5:19

January the 1st 19001 but if you think about it that's a not a great date to

5:25

choose Nation because you're always going to confuse New Year's Day or not confuse but

5:30

the the the day of nationhood will always be overshadowed by the fact that every January the 1st is is a New Year's

5:35

Day and that's a big celebration so nobody thinks about oh this is that day that Australia became a nation 120 years

5:41

ago no one cares about that they care about January 1st is Australia Day now isman chose uh August 15 1948 I mean not

5:50

by himself but with others they chose 1948 August 15 the 3 days after Japan

5:56

lost the war to uh to be the day that they declare the Republic Republic of Korea I think strategically I can

6:02

understand why they did it but in hindsight it wasn't a great date to choose because now everybody just thinks

6:08

of Quang bokol is only Liberation from Japan but actually if you look at articles in the uh the national

6:14

encyclopedia Quang Jo is not just 45 it's also 48 so it's both August 15th in

6:21

both of those years the uh the the the return of light to Korea is the

6:27

establishment of the Republic but people just think of it now as being ah it's when Japan lost the war would that be

6:33

what do you think is that b right so I mean this is all very it's all true very

6:38

interesting and when uh I was asked this question my mind went back thousands of

6:44

years because you go toang and the two statues that you have um are of sang

6:51

andin neither of them were even close to being alive when the Republic of Korea

6:57

was first founded so Korean history itself goes back you know centuries so when you know I was asked that question

7:05

I obviously don't think of 1948 um I go you know centuries back but

7:11

when you think about Korea's South Korea and North Korea as two independent countries then I guess the answer is is

7:20

very different mhm and Korean people don't care this was Jacko was saying and

7:26

everybody's different there's lot but it's not the reason they might not know is that if you ask a Korean person when

7:31

did it start it's not that interesting or it's not important in the grand scheme of things I don't think I know a

7:37

single Korean who would be able to answer this question same for me I mean I think definitely the National

7:44

Liberation uh National Liberation day was I think is much important than the

7:52

discovery of Republic of Korea for me and when I also saw the date August 15th

7:57

I first which is a little embarrassing but I first thought it was a Liberation day so I was like oh it perhaps it's the

8:03

same day but it was actually 3 years afterwards so yeah when I asked the

8:08

studio owner when it was in Korean before we started he he he

8:14

said and so he went there realized it was gu B The Liberation day when South Korea gains Korea gains its independence

8:21

from the Japanese and then he he retracted so yeah there was this decision to put them on the same day but

8:26

three years apart at the time it might have made but now we're in a situation where South Korean people when they

8:33

think of August the 15th they don't think of the start of our country the start of our Republic to but instead

8:39

they think of we're free from the Japanese and and I haven't you know uh

8:45

academically we could prove this if we looked at speeches Quang B Jo's speeches in the last 20 30 years of various

8:52

presidents of South Korea do they talk about 1948 or they only refer to the defeat of the Japanese I I have

8:59

suspicion without doing the analysis that the focus is on 1945 the defeat defeat of Japan the focus is not on what

9:06

happened in 1948 where the uh the First Republic was created yeah I would continue this non-scientific uh analysis

9:14

by suggesting through my memory which is incredibly fallible that the previous Democratic Administration under uh

9:20

president mun in they often talked about 1919 as well there was a big focus on

9:26

going back even before to try to have this legitim and they would often Play Down sort of

9:31

American involvement there was more of a focus on WE the Koreans we've been doing this since 1919 going against the

9:37

Japanese and this might just be my only my own personal reading of it whereas the conservative government now in

9:42

charge under President Yun they're more likely to play up America's role in helping building the nation and maybe

9:48

come to this date a little bit more that's how I see it although of course speech analysis would be necessary on

9:54

that so this difference between uh the the length of history of as Charlie

10:00

mentioned going back thousands of years uh and a republic that was only created in 1948 uh that's really I think at the

10:07

heart of of Brian's book here is that he's trying to to tease apart uh the difference between a belief in a nation

10:16

an ethn Nation so the Mok Korea as Mok Korea as a as a group of people speaking

10:22

a common language on the one hand and this idea of a republic a nation state

10:28

the Modern Nation State on on the other hand and uh yeah as you said in the introduction he's complained and it's

10:33

not I I think from the book He's not just complain that the right has not built up a state nationalism he's saying

10:40

every government since 1945 right left or somewhere in between has not placed enough focus on creating a state

Is South Korea a republic or a nation?

10:48

Consciousness a state nationalism within Korean people so that uh the result is

10:54

that the the the the level of of trust and and positive feeling about the State

10:59

about the Republic about the thing that this symbol stands for is very low but

11:05

the level of Faith and Hope and trust and love in the minoc the nation is is

11:10

much higher uh and because you've got two careers on the same Peninsula Each

11:16

of which is appealing to that same MIM that that same Heart Of The ethn Nation

11:22

uh ultimately he says that yet that South Korea is is not going to to beat

11:27

North Korea in that battle because it's trying to be a more moderate uh sort of

11:32

ethnonationalism whereas North Korea is much more a hardcore uh radical ethn

11:38

nationalism and and and the weaker will never be out the stronger in this case that if you look through world history

11:43

um again just this is what Brer said not only in his book but also in his speech and his blog if you look through world history that the strong ethnonationalist

11:51

Spirit tends to play better and sell better to an audience than a moderate or

11:56

weak uh nationalism does and and I I get the impression that Brian is very fearful of what is possible I mean with

12:03

his experiences in South Africa in Germany um seeing those things and he

12:08

gives the example of the sinking of the chonan uh and saying and we'll come to that but before we come to the chonan

12:14

let's stay on this Republic or the nation so is South Korea does it

12:19

identify itself with the republic or the nation now South Korea is home to a very proud and patriotic people uh first

12:26

coming here seeing the teis and the Korean Flags lining the streets seeing them in the police stations and things

12:34

like that I wasn't used to seeing so many national flags everywhere coming from the UK they weren't as prominent

12:39

and I came here and I realized that that Korean people are very proud and and and they do they they chant and they sing

12:46

and they put their their patriotism out there but what Brian is saying in this

12:51

book is that they're favoring the the nation over the Republic there's this one line I'm not sure if it was in the

12:57

book or another blog that he wrote where if the if Korea does something good the nation is responsible and if something

13:03

bad happens it's the Republic and it's the government and it's bad Administration and so it goes that way

13:09

he also suggests that there's no Heroes of the Republic so Charlie you mentioned in kangun downtown we have the statues

13:15

of shin and song dwang both put by I believe in the 1960s um song was much

13:23

later but but but Admiral Lee was put there during the 19 and ironically and I

13:29

think he he hinted this in the book there uh but yeah those uh various statues of isin around Korea were set up

13:38

by Pak chuni around the time that he was normalizing relationships with

13:43

Japan so by putting up is shin it's a reminder that we're not betraying the

13:49

nation we're still very much you know our own Mok we're still very much the Korean people uh we might have relations

13:55

with Japan but we remember what the Japanese did to US during the OSI invasions of of the late 1500s so uh

14:02

plus also you might say that it could have been a a little bit of uh you know

14:08

I am a standin for Eon Shin so here's these statues I can't put up statues of me but I'll put up statues of another uh

14:14

Korean hero and you can look at him and you might think of me you know as a reminder Last Time Charlie was on here

14:21

he told us that he has a tattoo of e and shin on him there's some patriotism yeah I think he's like one of the histories

14:29

greatest badass uh I'm I'm not sure on the figure maybe you can correct me but he was uh

14:37

like he all of his a lot of his ships were destroyed and there was basically

14:43

like little to no hope cuz uh they were all outnumbered and isin goes to the king and the King's like okay well you

14:50

know we're screwed and then isin says something like no I still have like 13 ships let's go and then he he went and

14:57

then he was like you know like you know Sherlock BBC Sherlock when he's like the calculating everything and he's like

15:03

looking at the waves and he like uh matches it he he perfectly times uh the

15:11

shifting tides to strategically beat the out of Japan

15:17

and I think that I think that was like one of the greatest uh um stories from

15:22

history that I had ever heard and that's why it was like 2: a.m. but I called my tattoo artist I was like listen we need

15:29

we need to get a tattoo on me right away right away don't get out of bed I'm coming

15:37

down gee so the idea that there are who are the heroes then of the Republic

15:42

there's no hero and and so he's making the point that there's no holiday for the Republic there's no you know Heroes

15:50

on the currency we we have E shin we have s j we have these figures of old Korea but the Republic itself and we

15:56

have October 3rd right the get on Jolly opening day this is nothing to do with

16:01

the Republic it's all to do with when in in gorge on I don't know juong came down

16:08

or anyway that old story that that led to the birth of tongun had nothing to do with the Republic at all so you're right

16:14

that there there's there's more uh focus on on Mok in in holidays and in

16:19

different days than there is in in Republic yeah and what does that do it leads to uh yeah to A reduced feeling of

16:26

of um uh what do you call it State national ISM yes uh and if you have a

16:31

weak State nationalism you can't have a strong security Consciousness now I find this this an interesting question for

16:37

Charlie having been in the Army is it possible to have a strong feeling of um

16:43

protecting the nation security if you are not that if you don't care too much about the state that you live in it's a

16:50

really interesting question and I think uh at one point every almost every uh

16:57

soldier in boot camp they'll ask themselves this question or some form of

17:02

this question like what am I really doing here like what is my purpose in the Army like and uh there's this

17:09

mentality that you shouldn't stick out in the Army um you you're just you're

17:15

all insignificant um cogs in this you know

17:20

in in the Army which is the machine that keeps Korea alive but a lot of people who work hard in the

17:28

Army it's not patriotism but it they kind of indoctrinate you like a cult and

17:33

that's what boot camp is right it's like you get rid like forget about everything that you believed in like forget about

17:40

your family you have no identity which is why you're not allowed to uh have any

17:45

personal possessions you leave your shoes and your clothes back back at home your hair you're a hair so everyone

17:52

you're just like you know you just look like ants if you look from far away you see all these like uh these soldiers

17:59

marching to boot camp um and you you'll feel so insignificant in that moment but

18:05

you don't do it for the country but you do it um out of well for one thing fear

18:10

of punishment because you know they love they love beating you up in the Army and

18:16

two you are in like such a you're in this state where you're so afraid um so

18:24

you just stick to whoever you can and you have the sense of Brotherhood and family so you do it for them but I don't

18:29

think there's anyone that I came across in the Army who was like I'm doing this for my country like when you wake up at

18:36

6:30 and you sing the national anthem no one's singing it proudly no one's singing at all

18:43

sometimes so uh it's never for the Republic and it's there's no Pride

18:48

involved it's it's always uh it's always for yourself or for the people around

18:54

you and why do you think that is it's very hard to feel great ful for a

19:00

country when you feel like your country has done so little for you and so you

19:06

this this is interesting because in the book He meant uh Bri Myers he

19:13

mentions and I've heard a lot in the Army could you give us just a

19:19

translation for the English listeners well it's like is this well literally

19:24

means like how is this a country like how is like how is this an actual functioning country like this is not the

19:30

way a country should function um it's basically you know uh criticizing the

19:38

Republic obviously and it's it's never it's never like Korea it's never the people it's always the government the

19:44

Republic like the uh people in charge and um there's always this resentment

19:52

towards the state because it's like you have to give up a year and a half of your life um and which is so less than

19:59

it used to be which is yeah right how how long was your father in the Army for uh I bet it was more than two years

20:04

slightly under three years slightly under three years so it's about half of what it used to be yeah lucky

20:10

you right and I want do you think sorry sorry to interrupt it but do you think that perhaps in your father's generation

20:16

that that feeling of patriotism might have been higher than it is now I I'm inclined to think Yes actually because

20:24

um the more you give the people the more dissatisfied they are right and at that

20:30

point you like they got nothing right I I I'm not sure if this is a effect but

20:36

they did often uh give soldiers like a carton of cigarettes and that was part

20:41

of your pay uh cuz like everyone smoked like chimney back then and you're going to

20:47

spend the money on cigarettes anyway and it like you you get a bunch you get a lot of stuff from the Army but a Cardon

20:53

of cigarettes it was a part of the things that you receive from the Army on a monthly basis and and I don't know

20:59

probably made like like 101 Back Then basically nothing now I know sergeants

21:05

make slightly over pman on mhm which is a lot of money yes but

21:11

you have nothing like you have no Freedom right and if you like if say you

21:16

work in a 7-Eleven um and you add up the hours that you work in the Army and you work

21:22

that much at a convenience store you'll make like much more than that M so no amount of money will satisfy uh the

21:29

soldiers and um yeah it's a it's a very controversial topic but you you

21:34

obviously know that I really enjoyed my time in the Army and I am patriotic but I do also

21:41

recognize a lot of the issues that exist in Korean Society did you like the Army

21:47

because it made you better rather than protecting the country because I think you've you've to you've spoken about this G or something like you came out

21:54

looking good and looking ripped and healthy and with a new mentality on life I know keep saying that but also with a new mentality on life and did you like

22:01

the Army not because it instilled patriotism but because it made you better as an individual uh yeah

22:07

absolutely that's a huge part of it but I think this is a very uh this is my personal opinion the

22:14

reason I don't share the mutual hatred for the Korean army like a lot of other

22:19

Korean guys is because I was a Korean boy who grew up in New Delhi India so I

22:26

was a foreigner there and when I came back to Korea I spoke very little Korean

22:32

so I looked Korean but I couldn't speak the language so I was like kind of like

22:37

an outsider and I remember it was very difficult for me to make friends so I I

22:43

I was an outsider there and I felt like an outsider here my whole life and then I came to Korea and even as an adult my

22:50

Korean wasn't great and uh Co hit and I

22:55

was locked away in my house and it was just an extremely difficult time and I

23:02

think that's when my identity crisis hit um and I felt like I had no real place

23:08

that I could call home and I felt like the answer to that was to go to the Army

23:14

so I'd go in you remember me my fat Charlie goes into the army uh runs every

23:22

day works his ass off sings the um national anthem about 500 times wow and

23:30

every day at 6:30 I didn't I didn't know that about yeah 6:30 7 and 7 on the weekends okay and in my mind I felt like

23:38

by the end of this journey M I think I I I would allow myself to call myself a

23:45

Korean and Koreans have this thing like uh like are you Korean Korean are you a

23:51

kopo are you Korean American like why does it matter right like um you know the the

23:59

Jonathan the the black celebrity in Korea yes yes yes so no one would

24:04

actually he speaks Korean better than I do um and even if he's a citizen no one

24:09

would actually call him Korean but that's not that's not the case for other countries like if you have a British

24:14

passport and even if you look like me or you look Indian you can just say I'm British and people be okay with prime

24:19

minister the mar team yes yes but in Korea like I felt like I had to earn the

24:26

right to call myself Korean and in hindsight it's really stupid because it first it doesn't really mean anything

24:33

right it's just it's just the label like who decides who gets to be Korean and who's not and obviously I don't regret

24:39

my time in the Army but it just goes to show how sensitive the Korean people are

24:45

and going back to the book what's what I found really interesting is the beginning of the book It Starts by Brian Meyer saying you may he's very like

24:53

apprehensive about it right he's like uh you may feel like this is just and like

24:58

a foreigner talking about Korean politics and you the readers obviously

25:04

like the majority of the readers will be Korean because it's written in Korean will be like oh this is just like a like

25:09

a foreigner talking about Korean politics like who who the hell does he think he is and even that's what he

25:14

begins with and even in the end he says

25:20

um like he's like again he's being apprehensive about it like even after

25:25

having read the whole thing he's warning the reader like don't take this as a message of me as a foreigner telling you

25:33

guys what to do but uh regardless of whether you agree with the contents of

25:38

this book or not cuz there are some parts that I don't agree with but I think what what's important about this

25:43

is a he's not biased right and he's saying I'm talking about this because

25:49

the people who should be talking about this aren't and I think that's when it really hit home for me and he's writing

25:55

it in the Korean language it's not in English so everyone has to listen to what he has

26:01

to say if you're Korean or you care about Korea you live in Korea you have any ties to carea uh I think that's the

26:08

that's where it really hit home for me so really the Korean army should be handing out copies of this to every new recruit I think so there you go that's

26:14

an endorsement we should get General John in and tell him that I yeah I want he's

26:20

he's a busy man F over to Hawaii and things like this yeah General John bum wish you well sir um un I'm going to

26:27

come to you because we talking about this Republican nation and you know Brian in this book is saying that Korea

26:32

sees itself as a nation and and that that's hard because then that puts the effort on the minjock and it's hard to

26:38

be Korean here if you don't fit in a role if it was a republic it would be very easy if it was a republic you

26:44

wouldn't batter your eyelids Jonathan the the the celebrity is he Korean garan

26:49

am I getting that is just Korean I'm just trying to describe him for those that don't know him he often appears on

26:55

History shows um find out if Charlie can yeah he is uh conges Korean okay con

27:04

congales Korean yeah seems like a very nice chap speaks really well very yeah doing that the Republic and the nation

27:11

the minjok like is is this a Korean thing because we we don't sort of talk about a MJ and National ethnic identity

27:18

in Europe as much we're a bit scared of that I mean I think it's definitely Nation centered cuz for me like when I

27:25

used to learn history from elementary school or in even in Middle School it was usually focused in the perspective

27:32

of what the citizens have been through not in the perspective of like the

27:38

Republic and government so I think it was also I wouldn't say biased but it's

27:45

basically much more focused and on those n Nation wise yes can you say something

27:53

about tan like do you do you feel that is that something to you I mean Charlie's aled about his own like

The sinking of the ROKS Cheonan

28:00

conflict in the Army and becoming Korean So Tan M like this ethnic Korean

28:06

identity I I think meit I'm blanking um

28:11

you know what it means I guess yes I mean like as an United

28:18

citizens it's weird in the modern world though isn't it yeah it's not something that resonates is it about the concept

28:24

of Korea's One race of homogeneous people Everyone look Korean they were all descended from tangon the mythical

28:32

Proto father of Korea and uh yeah and and now suddenly in the last 30 40 years

28:38

we're seeing children born of uh of Korean and non- Korean so that that T

28:44

concept is being challenged a bit that's this this what what the Korean government calls the uh ton this

28:50

multiculturalism that we're seeing actually it's multiracialism it's multi- ethnicism but that that's the concept of

28:57

that's challenging done in the MJ now and the the MJ still has that holiday doesn't it in in October the foundation

29:04

day 2333 BC tang and halodi and the bear and the tiger going garlic and the mugart

29:11

yeah yeah it's all played out and that's there but a story about the Republic isn't the the people is together in I I

29:19

want to come on to the like sort of anti- Japan element of this but um in the beginning of the book we have this

29:24

sinking of the chonan and this was 2010 under the imyong bach

29:32

Administration and um uh a South Korean ship is sunk by a

29:38

torpedo um multiple lives lost memory I want to say 36 but I was stand corrected

29:43

it's around there um North Korea has been accused of this they haven't claimed responsibility as far as I know

29:49

today they still deny it they still deny it but most of the evidence is all pointing and saying that they did this

29:54

uh when I teach this to my to my students a lot of them say what did South Korea do like where's the

30:00

reaction cuz I go through this kind of list of atrocities sometimes as part of a balanced thing but I I talk about the

30:06

Commando raid I talk about the assassination attempt on Puck tongi that killed the first lady the the the rangon

30:12

bombing in 1983 I go through all these and my my students sometimes ask well what did Korea do in return like did you

30:19

go up did you do something Brian Meers in the start of this book says when the chonan is sign

30:24

can South Korean soldiers perish in in the war order if this was a different country there would

30:30

be an outcry there would be a demand for blood or something and uh it's I I I think he's right to say that that I

30:36

didn't feel this at the time obviously there was outrage and outcry but there wasn't a retaliatory strike back from

30:43

the Chan I think there are two uh one immediate thing that mitigates against that that feeling of

30:50

of let's retaliate and that is that in all of the uh instances you mentioned before the assassination of P Changi and

30:56

the Burma bombing very quickly they were able to find the perpetrator the person who did it and in the case of the chonan

31:04

I remember there being confusion and mystery about what what happened here it

31:09

wasn't like uh the rock Navy got a submarine on camera uh shooting a

31:15

projectile uh and blowing up the chonan so it it it took some time to piece

31:20

these things together and to work it out so that's I think the first thing that really uh Led Led there to be a slowness

31:26

of reaction and then the second thing was that uh unfortunately uh because imyong Bach as

31:34

president had very little support in people who didn't vote for him so the

31:41

left of society very quickly there grew this conspiracy theory that ah it's all

31:46

it wasn't a North Korean submarine it was uh an accident it was an American sub that struck the Chan and

31:53

the Chan sank because of that or or it was it was anything else but the North Korean so

31:58

uh and this conspiracy the I remember took hold amongst a lot of people in South Korea to this day I don't I

32:03

haven't done any surveys so I'm unscientific in that regard but I just feel that they haven't looked critically

32:09

at that conspiracy theory and said oh yeah we were wrong because remember they actually imong back Oran he was so

32:14

worried that people wouldn't believe him that they organized uh a five Nation

32:20

investigatory committee Sweden was involved Australia was involved the United States of course was involved uh

32:25

Korea I forget forget who was involved but anyway there were multiple Nations involved and the conclusion was yes this

32:32

looks indeed from all the evidence that we can find like it was a torpedo from a North Kore submarine uh but people still

32:39

didn't believe it so they went through the steps to try to prove it we can to to this day we can go down to ptech and

32:45

look at the chonan and see the damage that was done it was not a normal sinking it was not like it struck a

32:51

whale and went down I mean it's it is broken in half it is uh uh it's quite visceral to look at it and uh yeah I

32:58

think the evidence is in but at that time the belief wasn't there so that kind of held people back from saying we must uh we must respond now in what

33:06

Brian Meers does later on in the book of course he talks about what happened later in 2010 which is the shelling of yon pondor that was a no-brainer you

33:13

could see immediately those shells are coming from North Korea to yon Pongo now where was the response in that one now

33:19

in that case imyong Bak was ready to to he had the planes up in the air they were ready to go and and bomb those uh

33:26

those torpedo uh those um artillery tubes in North Korea uh but phone calls

33:32

came from uh the US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and the Secretary of Defense Robert Gates and they basically

33:37

talked president eong back down and said don't do this because we're worried that it might lead to a worse escalation so

33:44

there certainly was a desire in the military and in the blue house to let's hit back cuz we know who did it this

Who are North Korea?

33:50

time so very different response I think uh in the chonan and in the Yong and I remember being that day sorry to go on

33:56

so long I was with a group of you and I have both had the the pleasure of teaching at the Korean national

34:02

diplomatic Academy at different times yes Ford that year in in with Anon Ford

34:07

in uh in uh October November 2010 when the when yon Pongo was shelled I forget

34:12

the month but was October or November yeah it's around there uh that particular day we were taking a busload

34:19

of young Korean diplomats in training up to the British Embassy for an evening of

34:24

debate okay and uh as they were sitting on the the bus outside the Korean national diplomatic Academy all of them

34:31

were looking at their phone and their faces were white and their mouths were open because they were getting the news

34:37

that the shelling had happened uh and and they were worried about what what happens now you know so there was a

34:44

definitely a sense of fear I didn't sense rage from them like we got to head back but there was a sense of God this

34:50

could lead to war if it escalates and that was America sort of holding the

34:55

leash there on that thing cuz that's the story that I've heard as well the planes are there ready to go after the bombing of Y pong and Secretary of State Hillary

35:03

Clinton you say and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates apparently both reached out to to imyong Bak either directly or

35:09

through an intermed and said no we don't think it's a good idea don't do this now yeah yeah yeah so there's that played I

35:15

guess this idea of before we come on to the Japan one then the North Koreans

35:20

like so the North Koreans as brothers and sisters on the way over here R you were saying that when you were a kid you had to do like tongil guz in Elementary

35:28

School and and they're this Charlie you've stood across from them with sniper rifles at the DMZ and things like

35:34

this um if they're part of the nation if Korea is seen as a nation then North

35:40

Koreans are kind of related to you in some way but if if this is a republic and maybe that's where Brian is going

35:46

with this maybe but if Korea is a republic then North Korea is an enemy of the Republic It's A Friend Of The Nation

35:53

I I I'm kind of just making assertions here I'm not saying this is true but what I'm trying to pick up from what

35:58

he's saying that if South Korea views it as a nation North Korea are part of that story and the the nation's history takes

36:05

part in in kesong and pongyang and all of these places and in Manchuria that's part of the nation's story and you have

36:12

a shared thing if this is a republic North Korea is your enemy like it's it's

36:17

causing a an existential threat to this place so I know this is really sensitive

36:24

subject but on the subject of North Korea but like where does North Korea fit into this nation and Republic thing

36:30

for you guys I think both cuz uh I think um I

36:37

also learned I don't know what's it called in English but there is a law where the South Korean were they got a

36:44

chance to meet their family from North Korea and by looking at that and as I as

36:49

you already mentioned I grew up with how the unification was the best for Korea and

36:57

and by looking at that I thought it would be the best to think North Koreans and the unification and thinking them as

37:04

the same National people is the best but uh as you said I mean there are also

37:11

lots of issues um that we're dealing with North Korea and the threatenings so

37:19

I'm also in the middle of I'm also confused whether I should think them as the as friends as tungi or the the enemy

37:28

I think is yeah interesting but I wouldn't really think of them as enemy

37:33

do you think of them as like brothers and sisters and family and I think it's confusing yeah it's

37:39

ironic it's confusing but also it's hard to say sometimes isn't it because it's very political and it's very right at

37:45

the heart of Korea yeah I I get it I get it there's a uh a quote from uh in in

37:51

the last chapter of the book in the chapter 20 the Kon the conclusion uh where Brian cites a a British academic

37:58

I'd not heard of him before Barry buan yes and he says there on page 153

38:05

that uh where you have uh and I'm I'm Loosely translating here where you have an ethnic group that so divided ethnic

38:12

groups um split into two nations of the same ethnicity will inevitably lead to

38:20

will inevitably threaten the security of each other MH uh and he says that the

38:25

the idea the concept of the state uh is made insecure or unstable by the

38:31

concept of of ethnicity of of this this Mok and so you can look at Ireland Ireland for example that uh uh the

38:39

divide the division of Ireland led to Decades of uh of uh instability where

38:44

you had the Irish Republican Army trying to ferment rebellion in Northern Ireland

38:49

and that went on until the East The Good Friday Accord so that was one example of that here in in Korea we saw an example

38:56

of that the two ger until they came to an understanding in the 1960s that um we

39:02

are two separate Nations and we'll just talk to each other in that way until

39:07

that point I think there was yeah they were trying to uh to undermine each other you know and and so Korea is a

39:13

very very keen example of that where you have two states that have they share the same men J they share the same ethn

39:21

group ethnic group uh but they are the existence of two states is actually a threat to each other a continued friend

39:28

yeah and the existence where South Korea going on the idea of nation and seeing itself in that light I believe when

39:34

President moon was in pongyang at the U what's it called the arang stadium I I think it's called the MayDay Stadium the

39:40

mayday mayday stadium in Pyongyang they're giving a speech but talking about the M when he's addressing the

39:46

North Korean people our people are good people but talking about people together and

39:53

saying in in that sense um I you can't divulge like sort of military secrets

39:59

and things like that Charlie but the North Koreans like how are they presented in this way are they are they part of a Mok are they enemies of the

40:06

state this is a hard one to put you in front of a microphone but any thoughts on how North Korea fits into this uh so

40:16

when during the indoctrination process I I I the best analogy that I have because

40:23

all my friends uh none of them are Korean so they they're very curious about what the Korean arm is like and I

40:30

tell them the best way to understand that experience is kind of like joining a cult but you are forced to join the

40:36

cult you it's not like you you know it's like most people join a cult because you know they think it's the right thing to

40:42

do imagine being forced to join a cult that's that's what's happening here and the best the easiest answer that the

40:50

Army can give you is you're here because of North Korea now that's not it's true to an to some extent but it's it's just

40:56

a very easy answer and you just like when you hear that you're like yeah that

41:03

that sounds about right like mhm they're they're ready to go so we need people

41:09

who are ready to defend our country right uh but like take one random farmer

41:16

from North Korea I have nothing against him like he's just a guy uh who just you

41:22

know happened to be born on the wrong side of the peninsula so I have nothing against the

41:28

people but it's just you know it is really unfortunate and uh what's really

41:35

interesting is we share the same history like Korean history goes way back like I said before we share the same history up

41:42

until the point where they say you know kiml Song and all them were born from an

41:48

egg on top of you know the mountain uh so until until that point we share the

41:54

same history we were one people like and then because of some unfortunate

42:00

circumstances we have been split along the 308th parallel uh nothing I have no um hatred

42:10

towards the north I also uh I don't like wish for a reunification

42:19

because like what would that really even look like like I don't think I'm uh educated enough to kind of make a guess

42:26

of what that would look like politically or realistically so um it is what it is

42:32

and the effects of that is you know Roa the South Korean army

42:38

yeah excellent let's let's take this towards the anti Japanese oh before I do

42:45

that in a 2010 talk for Asia Society um Brian Meers said this usually the South

42:51

Korean left is blamed for the Public's lack of patriotism but it is the right who made blood nationalist a state

42:58

religion and so we've talked a little bit already about where the fault lies

43:03

in what South Korea has done um and how it's made itself how it's presented itself the heroes and the images with

Korea as Anti-Japanese

43:11

which it is constructed and that construction has been a necessity it's had to go through the the process of

43:16

nation building Charlie was just saying it didn't ask for this it didn't ask to be uh colonized divided part of a cold

43:23

war and yet despite all that maybe because of those I've argued in some cases it's still achieved what it's had

43:31

has done nevertheless those in charge on the left and the right we sometimes immediately go to the left is the the

43:37

ethn Nationalist and the right they're aligned with Tokyo and Washington Meers

43:42

is you know sort of going at both barrels with both the left and the right here and saying that the people in

43:48

charge of Korea have not instilled enough Civic nationalism in the academic literature you can kind of have um Civic

43:55

nationalism cultural National ISM or ethnic nationalism Civic nationalism what we were talking about earlier where

44:01

your nationalism is related to your passport it's related to your identification and anybody can be a part

44:07

of that Nation as long as you promise to obey the rules and you're like yeah I'm with you I can be part of that it's open

44:13

culturally is a little bit less wellknown but that's sort of The Basque the catalonian regions the Celtic regions as well but the ethnic

44:20

nationalism South Korea has still adopted that and he's perhaps saying it's not made enough effort to

44:27

transform itself over the years on the left and the right into a Civic nationalism where Korean people can see

44:33

themselves as identified with a republic with a state rather than these people

44:40

inside comparing the two koreas uh in the book Brian Meers says that North

44:45

Korea is centered around the Kim family whereas South Korea is centered on the image of the anti-japanese peace goale

44:51

wrapped in hat and scarf now this

44:58

this is quite interesting when I MCD the 85th Anniversary of hyang University uh

45:05

this week last week I can't last week sorry and it was a fabulous event and the people that came up to give speeches

45:12

this was the 85th Anniversary they and hyang university is associated with technology with engineering with looking

45:18

forward the the fourth Industrial Revolution and all of these beautiful buzzword everybody that came up to give

45:25

a speech talked about Japanese colonization and the scars inflicted on

45:30

it and I I was just standing there on stage with hundreds of people looking at me as these people gave the speech and just every one of you is saying that and

45:38

I I I wasn't criticizing them or supporting them it was just an observation that reinforced this how

45:45

like the how deep that kind of anti-japanese thing is associated with the Korean

45:51

identity that instead of celebrating the Republic of Korea we think of as we said earlier

45:57

The Liberation from Japan and that to be Korean in a sense to be South Korean is

46:03

defined by anti- Japanese sentiment and that's the holidays are based about it

46:10

right and so you have Kangol you have samil and don't you have the March 1st holiday as well and these are holidays

46:17

that are directed they're for the Korean people they're not solely directed at Japan but

46:22

it always brings that to mind and this all predates the start of the Republic

46:28

so if you thought talking about North Korea was difficult the relationship to

46:34

Japan in South Korea's identity Jacko do you have any thoughts

46:39

on this that Brian depicts North Korea centered around the Kim family South Korea in his words peace go wrapped in

46:46

the Hat and the scarf yeah uh you know for the last four years I've

46:55

worked for a a company that has an office very close to the Japanese Embassy and every Wednesday you hear the

47:01

shouting and the screaming and the chanting of the uh the anti- Japan demonstration to remember the Comfort

47:08

women uh the enforced Tech slaves during the uh during World War II because it's

47:13

it's really close by so it's it's hard to uh to overlook that it's certainly part of the of the Korean uh National

47:23

ethos what is it to be Korean it is to hate Japan m can you maybe just say

47:28

something about the every Wednesday protests because I don't get as good a view of them I don't see them as much

47:33

and well I don't see them either I'm going to turn on the a condition cuz I'm getting a bit warmer here is it on uh we it looks like it's on and yet I'm not

47:38

feeling anything we triy to turn it up somehow the conversation's quite spicy I think that's why we're getting a bit hot

47:44

I'm s sweat here we're talking about Japan uh look it's interesting because if you look at numbers of Koreans

47:51

traveling to Japan they're higher than ever last year my wife who's Korean uh

47:56

and I we were in fuka Japan and uh it was Hil jel and we were with Koreans in

48:04

Japan enjoying Japan and not thinking about samol for a moment we weren't

48:09

hating Japan we were just there in Japan having a great time uh and it's it's

48:16

interesting that you know and Brian says this in his book of course that humans are um capable of holding contradictory

48:22

thoughts in their head at the same time so Koreans can go and enjoy Japan and have a great time there but at the same

48:28

time hate everything that Japan stands for politically especially Japanese history um the Japanese emperor Emperor

48:35

and and the Imperial project of Japan expanding into East Asia so those things

48:41

can be held in the mind at the same time uh the demonstrations get quite loud

48:47

because even though the Japanese Embassy has moved on they still demonstrate in

48:52

the site where the Japanese Embassy was and maybe will be one day in the future that's cuz that's where the the stature

48:59

of the young girl happens to be does that make the selling of any that l or

49:04

there's a building there that's not used by the Japanese Embassy anymore the building been destroyed so it's an empty lot right now and uh as I recall a

49:11

couple of years ago so uh Metropolitan government cancelled the J the the

49:17

permit for the Japanese Embassy to build a new structure on that land and there's some kind of dispute about whether

49:23

whether Japan whether the Japanese uh government should have built that land that house that that building there

49:29

earlier uh and for whatever reason the soul city government has canceled the permit so it's temporarily um renting a

49:36

space in a building around the corner from there a little bit further I'm sure they can still hear the demonstrations because they use speakers and megaphones

49:42

what's been really interesting the last few years is that there's been counter demonstrations by other Korean groups

49:47

who go there and say um you know all the Comfort women were voluntary prostitutes

49:52

or something like or or rather they don't all say that but they do say you H um stole money from so there's a there's

50:00

sort of two competing groups of protesters there in the same space

50:06

trying to drown each other out with with more and more volume and it gets quite ugly and I don't think it achieves

50:11

anything ultimately but what it does achieve of course is it continues the hatred it brings on you they're bringing

50:18

in younger people bring in University students to um to help and so they

50:24

passing on that hatred to a new generation yeah it's not intergenerational trauma

50:29

but hatred yeah there's there's a new term that you've coined and I I really

50:35

like that you brought up this idea that it's possible to adopt in your mind two contradictory or two conflicting ideas

50:42

because Japanese cultural products sometimes in terms of the animations and and the top five movies at the cinema

50:49

sometimes like there'll be a great Fascination for these and you see every public holiday now Korean people are

50:54

going to Japan they're not doing the Tessa the uh the T the ancestor worship here they're going to Vietnam they're

51:00

going to Japan they're going to these places did you watch the movie Pomo I've not watched that movie cuz I heard about

51:07

this new movie P I think it's called exh humor in English and it became a uh Ton Man Ton Man yonga Ton Man manonga like a

51:14

10 million people have seen it one in five and I was like okay I have to go and see it and when I got halfway through the movie and it took that

51:21

anti-japanese turn I was like now I know why it's now I know why it's popular

51:26

because it's like that and all the Kore like yes absolutely there's definitely both a love of Japanese and

51:33

the culture but also this sentiment Mayers says during this book um that

51:39

part of the left I stand corrected if I get this wrong but that some part of the left like North Korea because they

51:46

perceive it to have taken an anti-japanese stance stronger than South Korea so South Korea has adopted a sense

51:53

of you know collaboration or tin this it hasn't been strong enough whereas North Korea was better at eradicating those

52:01

Japanese influences that's what Mayers says the South Korean left might believe but does so incorrectly because Kim and

52:09

the North Korean Republic was very quick to use elements of Japan Japanese history and culture to build up its own

52:15

State and the the the cult of personality around the Kims

52:20

all yeah that's an interesting idea and it's certainly one that uh even before cuz you and I have been really reading

52:26

uh Brian Myers's blog in English long before this book came out so we're familiar with some of these ideas uh and

52:32

he has been pointing out for years that indeed the the left in South Korea basically impeaches the legitimacy of

52:40

the Republic of Korea saying that the Republic of Korea is from its very Beginnings illegitimate because isman

52:47

used uh anti sorry former Japanese officials and former Koreans who had

52:53

worked for Japan former collaborators he put them into his brought them into his government uh and he's saying that by

52:58

doing so uh they're trying to to basically call the whole Republic of Korea into question and this is he links

53:06

that in his blog to uh what we saw when munji and president mjan was talking about uh the Republic actually having

53:13

roots in 1919 by doing that you're it's also uh

53:19

it's sort of continuing that project of delegitimizing the Republic of Korea that we live in now that was founded in

53:24

1948 by saying ah no actually it was founded in 199 in uh you know the roots

53:30

of uh of anti anti-japanese uh sentiment so uh yeah it's more than just liking

53:36

North Korea it's actually saying that South Korea is illegitimate and that North Korea is somehow more pure more it's the better Korea because they were

53:43

um better about getting rid of Japanese elements but as Myers points out and has

53:48

for years uh kiml song wasn't at all afraid or shy about bringing in Japanese

53:54

collaborators into his government I mean people like chungi the uh the mother of modern Korean Dance I mean she had

54:01

collaborated with the Japanese during the colonial period and she was a a prominent cultural figure uh in the

54:06

early years of the democratic People's Republic of Korea so uh yeah he he makes that point there that uh that North

54:12

Korea is no Puro but the idea of it is to some people and and that's a and that's a

54:19

challenge yeah it's it's a longlasting myth or legend that yeah people as you say people uh uh they're m Aken but they

54:27

keep they hold on to that belief we're humans we do that I think we we we we do until something Sparks us into

54:35

this Charlie unby this you don't have to answer the way Jacko does in any way but

54:40

we're talking about Korea's relationship to Japan and how you know some Korean people they like going on holiday there

54:45

they like the products but there's this anti-japanese sentiment built around the holidays and to be Korean means to have

54:51

this kind of you have to agree with the sentiment I've felt myself here like having to acknowledge that I I would

54:58

come from a European perspective and go no you guys have got to make up and you got to be friends and Willie brand gets down on his knees and you apologize and

55:05

it's all done but it's kind of different here I think how how does Japan fit into this story of South Korea for me like I

55:13

also found myself um what's it called bipolar cuz I also went to have you been to Japan yes did you have a good time Le

55:20

is really great but would you go again definitely

55:25

but I mean I really enjoy traveling to Japan but if I went there with my Korean

55:30

um one of my foreign friends who visited um South Korea and when I told uh told

55:36

her about like Korean history and the Japanese colinization I also showed the strong like anti-japanese sentiment to

55:44

her and then I suddenly came up to and told her asked her to um to travel

55:50

Japan and but I think it's also because um when I was taught about the history

55:56

that I remember from elementary school um it was like there was a very strong

56:02

hatred to L Japan and I think sadly what I remember is that like our Koreans were

56:08

learning those this Japanese colonization obviously we were very mad at um what they has done to

56:18

those um Korean people innocent Korean people and in the meantime there was

56:24

Japanese um half-blooded student who a new student who came and she got lots of

56:30

hatred from the Koreans I was not in the same class with her but I learned I like

56:36

I heard those rumors that she came because she came from Japan she got a lot of hatred and she hasn't done

56:41

anything wrong so I also felt really bad for her but she also came in the wrong

56:46

time that I thought that she came in the wrong timing and yeah I think it's also

56:52

important to like see her as friends to yeah

56:57

although we learning this history yeah it was very unfortunate to see my one of

57:02

the Japanese friend as an enemy yeah yeah I can't remember exactly where but somewhere in the book there Brian Meers

57:09

says that writes that uh in many post colonial states they actually have

57:15

strangely uh positive relations with their former colonizers right we see that to some extent in uh in frankophone

57:23

African countries that have positive relations with France uh it so Korea seems to be a little bit

57:29

of an outlier here that it has such a a negative relationship with Japan lasting

57:35

you know well over 70 uh years after Liberation more so than other countries do and maybe that's because the there

57:42

are holidays there and there's media there and it's part of the South Korean identity although that's maybe the wrong

57:48

way to say it because I get the feeling sometimes that the right wants to be friends with Japan

57:55

I wonder president Yun at the moment he's made great efforts to sort of get close to Japan a and work with the

58:01

Japanese government as well as Washington and I think that that was the people of Korea South Korea a lot of

58:07

them weren't ready for that like you you know you that's not what we do here that

58:13

he he wasn't a popular president to begin with he had his support base but that certainly didn't endear him to the

58:19

nation maybe the people weren't kind of ready for that um Charlie the thoughts

58:25

on Japanese the holidays here the feelings do

58:30

you see so I don't think it's very different from India and the UK yeah you

58:38

have really large population of Indians in the UK and so I think you can coexist

58:44

you can appreciate each other's culture but also recognize the history MH and I

58:49

think that's what we should be doing but the Koreans are very hateful people and

58:57

they love to hate on so I think that's why like uh uh Jack just

59:04

mentioned that Korea is a bit of an outlier so uh having lived in India so obviously

59:11

India recognizes you know the atrocities that the that the the British Empire uh

59:17

committed but you know they still want to go to London on a holiday right like

59:23

we can recognize the fact that uh uh you know what Japan did to us many many

59:29

years ago was was a terrible thing terrible things happened but I still

59:34

want to go to Tokyo you know and I think you can you can do both but and and this actually start to

59:41

drop there but a 100 years ago during the colonial period uh some of the the

59:48

the early Korean nationalists and Korean Communists were students in Japan so they were doing both too right they were traveling to Tokyo but still hating on

59:55

Japan and for Korean Independence so that's not a new thing I guess yeah and

1:00:00

so uh yeah Koreans are very bitter that's it's the hand is it yeah

1:00:07

that's the clip I'll put the hate flows through you can feel it flow through the Koreans whenever they hate on someone

1:00:14

like yeah it's like a it's like hatred like no other it's like you watch a

1:00:19

football game and before the game is on um everyone is is like the world's

1:00:27

biggest like everyone is like uh the Korean national team's biggest fan

1:00:32

they're like oh and um all these players are going to do so great yeah we

1:00:38

tie with Thailand one time M and you go on the Instagram comments and they are

1:00:46

ripping apart the entire roster their mothers their wives their girlfriends

1:00:54

weird scandals like weird scandals about like how this guy had uh had like a a

1:01:00

sex tape with someone and they're making fun of the size of his penis oh because

1:01:06

he because he couldn't score a goal but wow and I I was upset because you know

1:01:12

like we should have won that game but uh Koreans are very quick to you know they

1:01:18

they they love that go to the internet and just start talking the moment they get the

1:01:25

chance to do so mhm and um same thing with Japan it's just

1:01:31

unending and that's why you still have there's so much controversy about Japan online even to this day and it's not

1:01:37

going to stop it's just going to go on and on even though they this hatred will be coming from Generations that had

1:01:44

nothing to do with the Japanese people who were you know it's getting stronger

1:01:50

you go away as time passes but the anti-japanese sentiment it was only a

1:01:55

few years ago remember guys that you would walk into a supermarket and there would be no Japan uh posters over home

1:02:01

plus and em like the Walmarts of South Korea they would have these no Japan things when uh when welcome to my dong

1:02:09

Bart came to speak with me here he bought with him four cans of Heineken and he said to me before sorry B he said

1:02:15

to me before he put him down I normally drink a SOS saporo but I couldn't do that because you're videoing it he was

1:02:21

careful of that though but you see it sort of publicly and it's out there and uh it's definitely something to behold

1:02:28

before one of the South Korean matches at the Olympic Stadium when they were playing Japan they unfurled a huge

1:02:33

Banner of anong gun who is the uh the Korean uh hero who who does the

1:02:42

assassination shot yes and they unveil this big poster

1:02:47

of him it's it's really here just on India um I want to say one thing about

1:02:52

colonization um but just before that on India uh briten relations there was a

1:02:57

fabulous speech was I Oxford or Cambridge forgive me for not remembering by Dr Shashi THU and he said that in

1:03:04

terms of reparations he would like Britain to pay one pound because it would be symbolic because no other

1:03:11

amount of money could deal with this um you couldn't and he you know he played it out how much it would be or not but

1:03:18

it shouldn't be nothing and it shouldn't be real but it should be this symbolic one pound that then we can move on and

1:03:24

it was very compelling argument at the start of that speech and then I'll move to colon colonization he says um um I

1:03:32

come from the Henry VII line of public speaking um which is to

1:03:40

say I forgot on the line let's move on to colonization and

1:03:45

that the Sashi tho one will come to me and I'll give it to you not all colonization is the same Jacko that

1:03:51

sometimes when you were talking about France and its colonies Britain and its colonies it's sometimes worse to be colonized by those close to you well

1:03:58

let's think about Britain and Ireland for a moment there yes yes yes yes exactly Britain did some horrible things

Park Chung-hee as a benevolent dictator?

1:04:04

in Ireland uh over the centuries but I think Ireland fits firmly into that

1:04:10

group of countries that now has a positive relationship with its with its former colonizer That You Don't See at

1:04:17

least I'm not aware of uh attempt to whip up anti-british hatred throughout

1:04:23

Irish Society of course there are plenty of Irish people who have who have a grudge against the British for being colonizers and I'm not saying that

1:04:29

they've forgotten that by any means no but to suggest that politicians in Ireland still do that I don't I don't

1:04:35

see it whereas in Korea if you're if you're a politician I'm sorry mja dang

1:04:41

but if you're from the minja dong and you're a politician and you want to get some support whip up some anti

1:04:46

anti-japanese hatred that'll always help yeah it's the message that never stops selling in a way that it stopped selling

1:04:52

in in Ireland a long time ago and it's still part of Civic discourse public discourse you can

1:04:58

say it and you won't you know because I think you're right to say that in Ireland people will feel that but you you can't really say that in public you

1:05:04

know you say after a few pints in the pub but elected leaders and officials shouldn't be uh doing that um I come

1:05:11

from the Henry VII uh School of Public Speaking as Henry VII said to his wife I won't keep you

1:05:17

long that was I I got there in the end

1:05:22

um Japan is something I think here we could talk about a one of the things that I really agreed

1:05:28

with uh with Brian on this is about Pak tongy well guys if you thought this

1:05:34

conversation was going to be easy we're going from North Korea to Japan to Pak we we can go to the things that you want

1:05:40

to do as well the this benevolent dictator Myers uh

1:05:47

makes an assertion that's correct to my own experiences actually teaching International and Korean students here

1:05:54

in chapter 7 he says that his students from places such as usbekistan respect pongi for the development he brought to

1:06:01

the country as a benevolent dictator while American students often raised on a Bruce Cummings Le narrative are quick

1:06:08

to dismiss him as a dictator guilty of Human Rights abuses and I've had

1:06:14

students from Indonesia not all of them I'm generalizing but it's over many years students from Indonesia students

1:06:20

from Vietnam students from Kazakhstan and they say I wish we had a park chongi

1:06:25

because they look at the country here and and what has been built and they say well we had a dictator but we didn't

1:06:31

have that dictator and many countries are going to have one but they didn't have him and you know is is Park Tong a

1:06:40

hero of the Republic because in 1960 the majority of South Korea is agricultural

1:06:47

it's working on farms it's a it's a very poor nation in the grand scheme of

1:06:52

things and it's been dragged Kicking and Screaming into into modernity there was a lot of missteps along the way and

1:06:58

there was a lot of heavy-handed behavior definitely but there's two perspectives

1:07:04

on PK tongi and and one is this great respect that comes from less developed Nations and say look what this guy did

1:07:10

and the other is no human rights this is unacceptable and to look down and so

1:07:16

that also you know South Korea's here a hero of the Republic it's hard to frame

1:07:22

him like that but some people will see it like that I certainly see International students that are like that they they almost want to sort of

1:07:29

take that model back to their own countries and like let's do it like this of course it won't work but what Brian

1:07:35

was saying in chapter 7 about pangi is a benevolent dictator seen by some as a

1:07:42

hero and by others from other countries with different narratives is a i i really rang true with me and my

1:07:48

experiences I think he was on point with that the P your vision of P Chong is

1:07:53

determined by your current IDE identity and where you're from and the narrative and today if South Korean young people

1:07:59

are raised on identity and morality and the morality today amongst young people is very kind of progressive the students

1:08:07

by the way from Indonesia and that they'll look at Koreans go wow you guys are so Western and Progressive and the

1:08:12

and the students from Germany and goes you guys are a bit behind right you're very Asian and so I think it's hard now

1:08:17

for Koreans to look at pong and go yeah he did well because our whole framework and mind has changed that what pongi did

1:08:25

then would never fly today so it's hard to see him in that light as the

1:08:30

benevolent dictator a hero of the Republic perhaps hard to

1:08:37

see but is there such a thing like that that was my main question yeah it's like

1:08:42

a bit oxymoronic in nature yeah Ben the Ben dict

1:08:48

dictator so the way I see it is uh he was like he was like kind of uh

1:08:57

very thing about the media right like he wanted complete control over it and he wanted to like uh be in office for life

1:09:05

like he wanted to be the one to bring change but he did MH MH so it's kind of

1:09:11

like and yes like there were some you know very shitty things that happened

1:09:17

but someone had to you know take Korea from you know being in the bottom to

1:09:24

where it is now M and uh this is going

1:09:29

to be very controversial and crazy to say but get ready Instagram

1:09:37

is I would say there will be no black pink or BTS without Park chongi

1:09:46

so everyone should recognize the fact that certain sacrifices have to be made

1:09:53

and Korea's it's not a far from being a perfect country but it's come a long way

1:10:00

and the sacrifices that were made yes they were tragic but I would go so far

1:10:06

as to say that they were necessary sacrifices if uh we want to appreciate

1:10:11

and live in the developed country that we live in right now yeah let let's I'll also try to put this on the record that

1:10:18

we've said heavy hand lot of shitty things happened and such forth we shouldn't be under the illusion that

1:10:25

this was chairman Ma's Great Leap Forward or Paul pot and what he was doing with intellectuals this wasn't

1:10:32

there wasn't as far as I know and I'll stand to be corrected on this there wasn't the the mass ex execution of

1:10:39

groups of people there wasn't sort of massacr taking place yes it was very

1:10:44

handy Jacko you just breathed in am I wrong on that no I was thinking about uh

1:10:50

sort of the the counter example of um I think it was in Zimbabwe where uh mgab

1:10:56

he did go in and and kill groups of people from other tribes that weren't aligned with his own um and and so

1:11:03

thinking how fortunate we are here in Korea uh that precisely that did not happen here in Korea I mean I back in in

1:11:11

when I was living in Australia in the early 2000s I knew a uh a very um

1:11:16

Progressive uh South Korean minister of religion who was um very friend very sympathetic towards North Korea and very

1:11:23

down on uh p here and and um right-wing presidents in Korea uh and so when I I

1:11:31

when we spoke about the numbers of uh of political prisoners in North Korea which

1:11:36

already then were said to be about uh 250,000 people Mark he said well no uh I

1:11:43

can't believe that because even in the worst excesses of South Korea under the

1:11:48

military dictatorships there were never more than 25,000 political prisoners at one time and I just can't believe that

1:11:54

North Korea would have be worse than that so it must be about the same level that was his metric so his metric was if

1:11:59

South Korea was this bad North Korea couldn't be any worse even in its worst successes so you're right that I mean if

1:12:06

you if you were to tally up all the the bad things that uh that Park chy and

1:12:11

John danan if we're going to talk about that D did uh John danan has guangju in

1:12:17

there as well I think so that's very different but uh so but the the sum total of all the shitty dictatorial

1:12:22

things that were done in Korea if you were rank all of the dictators in the world Korea would South Korea would come

1:12:28

pretty low in terms of how bad the dictator wouldn't you think I you you've already mentioned China the Great Leap

1:12:34

Forward the cultural revolution tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of people uh either lost their jobs or

1:12:40

their lives and their livelihoods there's so many bad examples of dictatorship around the world uh it's

1:12:46

never a good thing I'll condemn bad things when I see it but I agree uh with Charles that uh that the north the South

1:12:54

Korea that we see the Republic of Korea that we live in today wouldn't be the same as it is right now almost at the

1:13:00

same level of Japan in terms of GDP per capita and I know that's a purely economic metric but we wouldn't be

1:13:06

living the the kind of lives that we're living right now if it hadn't been for Park jungi and I'm not going to call him

1:13:11

a hero because he did shitty things too but ker is here now because of where what it went through then agreed or

1:13:18

disagree what do you think going be yeah I mean I definitely agree I think it's true that although because of his

1:13:25

dictatorship there has been lots of people who were abused with their human human rights but um as you already

1:13:33

mentioned Korea has developed rapidly because of his um should I call it help

1:13:39

because of his ruling and yeah um

1:13:45

from from Miracle the river yeah exactly and the uh the the the new villagers

1:13:50

movement the seile movement which other countries now come to study and I think going back to what you said earlier I

1:13:56

wonder if some of those countries who are now studying the seong that I wonder if some of them are hoping I wish we

1:14:02

could bring back a par I mean theong ideas are nice but could we also bring back this kind of leadership sorry to

1:14:08

interrupt keep yeah I mean definitely um I'm not sure if I I would like this

1:14:14

um dictatorship kind of thing back to Korea right now but no please yes we've

1:14:22

had enough exactly I think we had enough and from that sacrifice thankfully I think

1:14:27

Korea has developed a lot yeah yeah you know that there's that um it's a funny

1:14:33

saying uh or metaphor uh you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs now

1:14:38

in that does sound like the ends justify the means and I'm careful not to do that but in if you ask the question okay here

1:14:46

are the broken eggs where's your omelet in South Korea it's very clear this the

1:14:51

society we're living in today this is the omelet now in many other countries where they've had dictatorships you can't find any omet

1:14:58

you can find lots of broken eggs you just can't find an omelet I tell that story in my class that's weird I've

1:15:04

never told you that that um I I I've understood that story as um George ell

1:15:10

being a massive critic of the the Soviet Union and the gulags there a member of the Soviet Union comes over to the

1:15:16

United Kingdom he's giving a speech and and George Orwell says to the Ambassador uh how would you explain the gags the

1:15:22

political prisons and the mass oppression the Soviet responds I won't do it any more than

1:15:28

that but to make an omelette you have to break a few eggs to which Geor Oro applies where's your where's the omelet

1:15:35

and South Korea has this omelet it's it's right here you can see it now North Korea which also had a dictatorship

1:15:40

there's no doubt about that where's its omelet yeah people are still going without food there I I have a stupid

1:15:47

question about the new Village movement I'm not sure if any of you know it is is the symbol of that the green kind of leaf in I'm seeing that more and more in

1:15:54

gangan I'm seeing that pop up cuz I saw it I'm like that's the new that's theong like

1:16:00

symbol and I'm seeing parts of it crop up again and I'm not used to seeing it in Modern Life as I drive around in my

1:16:06

car listening to YouTube it's it's something I associate with history and the past and still exist it still exists

1:16:13

but I'm I'm beginning to see it around I'm not sure if that's just a a cognitive bias but yeah there it is and

1:16:21

pongi he when he normalized relations with Japan Japan in 1965 too much

1:16:27

protest got lot of money from Japan my memory is going to say something like

1:16:33

$500 million I'm not sure if that's correct yeah some were um purely uh Aid

The American hegemony of Korean Studies

1:16:38

and some were what they call soft loans loans that may not be repaid yeah and he he didn't put all that money in his

1:16:45

pocket as I understand he built this whole Tusan Expressway through much hard effort cuz

1:16:51

sometimes I I remember driving through the countryside with my mom and my brother and they're like did they just

1:16:58

build through these mountains because when you go in South Korea you drive out to the east coast drive sou you go

1:17:03

through a mountain and then 10 seconds later you go through another mountain and you go through another Mountain

1:17:09

imagine doing that in the in the mid 60s and that's what they did pangi could have built Big statues of himself all

1:17:16

around the country but he didn't he didn't put himself on the currency either Charlie doesn't have a PK chongi tattoo yet not

1:17:22

yet I'll think about it yeah hold on for keep

1:17:29

thinking yeah no exactly uh one of my um one of the favorite people I've met in

1:17:35

South Korea the late Peter Bartholomew he when he was living in kangun in the late 1960s a train journey from kangun

1:17:42

to sa with an overnight trip wow you get there in two and a half

1:17:47

hours today something like that hours yeah there were no tunnels through mountains back then yeah yeah time and

1:17:53

space was real the land was there the mountains so this is something that

1:17:59

Myers was saying about the benevolent dictator and the views of him being shaped by different things an American I

1:18:05

I'm going to go to this one that is maybe not of Interest as much to Charlie and uni but um this was about Brian

1:18:13

Meers position Contra against Bruce Cummings and Victor cha now Bruce Charles

1:18:20

Armstrong and Charles Armstrong yeah um Charles Armstrong is a is a different

1:18:26

story but Bruce Cummings Korea's Place in the Sun um the origins of the Korean War a very uh well-known figure in

1:18:34

Korean studies a lot of people doing Korean studies will read Korea's Place in the Sun I I've had to read it as part

1:18:39

of my thing and Bruce Cummings is seen as the progressive he's seen as the the

1:18:45

one that brings the light and has the hard critical biting views that nobody wants to see in this book um Myers

1:18:53

labels him a moralist rather than a historian saying that rather than being

1:18:59

a brave liberal researcher he is a neoliberal Insider who receives us funding and can't speak Korean and when

1:19:07

I read that I was just I had to put it down I actually took a photo and sent it to somebody I was like this is not just

1:19:15

about Korean politics but this is about how The Narrative of the Korean nation

1:19:20

is being written is being disseminated it's gramian he's talking about hegemony and control of media that if you go into

1:19:28

a career study program and there's all of this funding and there's this money that you're going to get the Cummings

1:19:34

narrative or you're going to get a certain narrative that is funded that is intentional and it's not as liberal as

1:19:41

it may seem in some senses it's very quick to uh defend North Korea at every

1:19:48

possible angle he talks about Bruce Cummings I believe um not mentioning uh

Reading Korean history written by a foreigner

1:19:53

famines and Korea but that will criticize South Korea every so South Korea I believe is

1:20:02

saying is judged according to objective standards look you did this wrong this is bad you did this wrong whereas North

1:20:09

Korea is given like relative standards well you know we can understand that you did that you're that kind of state so

1:20:15

there's almost like this personal battle between two individuals I think where

1:20:21

he's he's attacking a large figure and saying that there's the hegemonic control of media um by people that might

1:20:29

seem Progressive on the outside but when you actually look at them as I said that that's how he labels them and when I

1:20:34

read that I was like this is this is quite I didn't expect to read it in a book like this you don't you

1:20:39

don't normally read that in a history book this gramsky in control of

1:20:45

media uh Myers has been a Critic of Bruce Cummings the revision of scholar

1:20:50

for a long time yeah since at least since he uh wrote in the Atlantic in

1:20:58

back in 2004 that's 20 years ago already so he been a Critic of him for for many years and so I was not I was not at all

1:21:05

surprised to see Cummings pop up in the book I thought he he had a bit he Cummings received a bit more attention

1:21:11

than he probably uh deserved in this book because it's mostly about South Korea rather than about North Korea or

1:21:17

origin of the Korean War but I wasn't surprised to see him here so but that's

1:21:23

it maybe let's maybe give Charlie or um some on this how do you feel about this book being written by like do you get a

1:21:30

sense of who this person is so history is written by a historian like when you read this did you did you become curious

1:21:36

about the person Brian Meers or you reading a book about Korean politics and history by a foreigner did that ever

1:21:43

strike you at any moment was that weird was I mean for thank you I for me um by

1:21:51

reading this book I definitely thought that I need more background information um to understand Korean and

1:21:58

by reading this book I was like is it okay to read um historical book from The

1:22:04

Foreigner writer before I read you know those history historical books written

1:22:11

by the his Korean historians so but I also found it interesting that I think

1:22:18

it was I think it gave me views to look at Korea for example um the lack of

1:22:26

national state nationalism State nationalism for example and I think it

1:22:32

Al also so I was able to look at Korea with unbiased stereotypes cuz yes do you

1:22:39

think foreigners are unbiased I I don't think I don't think criticizing yeah

1:22:44

yeah yeah yeah yes I was able to see it from the foran viw and how they look at Korea mhm

1:22:51

yeah because I think history is very political in South Korea whether you think it's 19119 or 1945 or 1948 you can

1:22:59

place somebody on the political Spectrum by asking them a question and and according to the number that they give

1:23:05

you in response and this is true in other countries as well it's not just Korea but you can you can find what side of the line they come on history is not

1:23:12

a unified subject here and that's why they still fight over the textbooks and over the narrative and I think that's

1:23:18

what Brian is kind of alluded uh alluding to Here Charlie you told me in

1:23:23

class you you asked me in class once uh did he really write this and any any thoughts on on the

1:23:31

person that you've read here or so there it's not really like a textbook right

1:23:37

there is a personal touch to this book and he isn't afraid to share his

1:23:43

opinions and I think that actually kind of made the book more interesting to

1:23:48

read because um he's not trying to tell you like this is how it is but it's very

1:23:54

clear that this is how he he views it and and how he experienced it right so

1:23:59

it is there there is some subjectivity to what he is saying but uh history

1:24:06

should be objective but how often is it really objective right so uh like I said

1:24:12

I think the the main point that I really respect is that it's written in Korean

1:24:18

right it's not it's not it would have been so much easier to write this in English but to clear

1:24:25

like if we question why is this in Korean like why is the title in Korean why is everything in Korean it's because

1:24:31

he wants a message to be thrown out there and the target audience is clearly

1:24:38

the Korean people and the book begins and ends with him

1:24:43

emphasizing the fact that I may be a foreigner and he I think he you know he's he's somewhat humble he says you

1:24:49

know I also acknowledge the fact that I don't know a lot of things MH but uh you may view me as a foreigner who was just

1:24:57

talking about Korean politics and Korean history but the question like then he

1:25:02

poses the question like why should you listen to me and so uh I I'm and when I

1:25:09

read that I'm also wondering yeah why should I listen to you like a white man

1:25:14

uh you're not like you may have lived in Korea but like what like what real

1:25:20

Authority do you have but I think the moment he he he said because I'm willing

1:25:27

like I'm taking a chance like I'm uh talking about things that you guys

1:25:32

aren't willing to talk about like you know the Korean people aren't interested and uh when we began this podcast people

1:25:40

don't know that it's 1948 right mhm the founding of the Republic right not when

1:25:46

we began this podcast so uh he's want to talk about it

1:25:53

and if he's willing to talk about it as a foreigner who's writing in our language then I think we should be

1:26:00

willing to listen mhm and uh like I said I don't agree with everything but I do I

1:26:06

really do think it's a very important uh it's a very important piece of literature and I think we need more

1:26:14

things like this like Koreans seem to believe that uh this is our country our

1:26:20

land like everything is US everything is Udi right and there to be this like division of like Koreans being one pure

1:26:27

race right the pure race the B um that that division that line needs

1:26:34

to be blurred because Korea is now a developed country we are experiencing

1:26:39

globalization Korea is like you know it's very like look at the rate of modernization you've been here since

1:26:44

1995 right uh 96 96 with a few years away for good behavior right so how fast

1:26:50

do you think the like the rate of development in Korea like how how quickly has Korea become a modern

1:26:57

society how do you feel about it oh it's uh it's it's dizzyingly fast you know

1:27:03

you go away and you come back 6 months later and your favorite restaurant is gone there's a new building there you know it's it it's happening very quickly

1:27:10

sometimes too quickly yeah like this isn't like development at an exponential Pace right so I think it's unprecedented

1:27:18

almost anywhere in the world have have you ever had the experience of meeting a Korean War veteran who was here in the

1:27:25

1950s no so I was lucky enough to meet several of them and they they come back

1:27:31

and they don't believe what they're seeing cuz in the 1950s in pan there was

1:27:36

a refugee Village on the mountain there people were living in Russian crates and and cardboard boxes basically it was

1:27:42

punon it was it was uh Shanty towns all across the country or at least in the large cities everywhere and now they

1:27:49

come and they see this this glittering City with with skyscrapers and and and huge LED screens and they don't believe

1:27:56

what they're seeing M and that's Testament to to what Korea

1:28:02

has done yeah completely before you finish I would love to hear um before we finish today what you disagree with if

1:28:08

there is something because you know we've talked about some of the things I've said what some of the bits I agree with him I'd also like to hear uh from

1:28:15

Jacko about the amount of Meyers there is in this because that's something that you've brought up I heard uh Brian speak

1:28:22

at a royal asiatics soy colloquium event uh a few months ago I was there with

1:28:28

Colin Marshall and Chris trutor and some other people mat van venberg and during that talk uh Brian the author of this

Personal narratives

1:28:34

book he said very interesting thing to me at the time which was do you know why

1:28:40

so many professors these days focus on Halu and K-pop and black pink and soft

1:28:46

power he said the reason is because if you do actual Korean history or Korean

1:28:52

politics you're going to get trouble because if you actually do it like an academic or like a historian and you go

1:28:58

after what you're meant to go after you're going to find yourself coming up against some very you know Charlie's

1:29:05

talked about the the feelings here and and we know that that that's why people are gravitating towards the black pinks

1:29:11

and the bts's and we're well beyond that now but because it's generally a little bit safer but if you go after the actual

1:29:18

history and politics and this is with no disrespect but like if I ask Korean people what what do you think T then

1:29:25

what about this really important things in the Republic a lot of Korean people young Korean people that I interact with

1:29:31

will go um and some of it's a lack of knowledge and some of it's a lack of

1:29:37

confidence and some of it's a lack of well what am I meant to say actually should I say this or should I say that I

1:29:42

don't know and it's their country and uh I I think you're right Charlie to say

1:29:48

why should you listen to Brian but at least it makes you start thinking about who you should listen to and where you

1:29:54

should start listening the amount of Meers in this or anywhere you wanted to yeah there's a

1:29:59

lot I mean from my memory of reading the book there the first time that Brian set foot in career was

1:30:05

1984 and this book is organized historically it starts off with the uh

1:30:11

um you know chapter gosh um so chapter 4 is basically it's from the uh uh Liberation

1:30:19

and then you're walking through is man and then ping so it's historically organized chapter by chapter and then as

1:30:25

he appears in the book in 1984 there's more and more of Brian in each chapter cuz there's more and more anecdotes of

1:30:32

his own life what did he observe what did he see in the 80s and the '90s and the 2000s and so that makes it uh an

1:30:39

interesting more interesting narrative wise because there's a lot of the author in it you know it's uh uh a subjective

1:30:46

book it's not trying to be an academic work but it does situate itself somewhere between academic and and a

1:30:53

simple book of essays because it's got a lot of footnotes in here it's got a list of references at the back uh so yeah it

1:31:01

it's maybe a new genre to itself I'm not sure what you would call it but it's not trying to be a textbook or an essay book

1:31:06

but it's somewhere in between I want to say and Charlie said that that he kind of resonated with

1:31:12

those anecdotes and maybe that's part of it what I've started doing in the last couple of semesters at University is when I introduced certain topics I often

1:31:19

start with a TMI part or something like this and I put photos of me up when I was in my 20s or how I how I grew up why

1:31:26

my views of women and feminism how they've been affected by growing up with my grandmother and Queen Elizabeth II

1:31:34

and Margaret Thatcher I'm not some objective rational thing that I've been informed by my experiences and I

1:31:41

remember reading the start of this and going wow there's a lot of M he's talking about he's a vegetarian then he's doing this and he says if I was in

1:31:48

Europe I would be seen as a progressive but here I'm seen as a as a right-wing uh apology

1:31:54

and it was very I remember asking Marshall when we were speaking about it you were there at the pub that nighte

1:32:01

and I was like is he doing that because this is a Korean book and that's what Korean people expect they expect a

1:32:07

little bit of uh this humble here I am humility or is it part of a new movement

1:32:13

is it just the way it came out I'm not quite sure I want to make this point about time he says page 1617 that

1:32:22

Koreans struggle with chronology that Western people see history as a

1:32:27

long story whereas Korean people see it as a series of touching events so they

1:32:32

go from this one to this one and so when they when they don't know when the

1:32:38

founding of the Republic is and when this comes and why this happens it's a

1:32:43

cultural rather than an intelligence difference it's not that Korean people don't know this but Brian here is

1:32:49

suggesting that the Korean way of telling history is not chronological that there's a more

1:32:56

holistic view well and he gives a very specific example doesn't you have one book where um it's springing back and

1:33:03

forth between uh you know I can't find the exact quote now but it's basically

1:33:08

it's being completely non-chronic oh here we go think there in the in one paragraph it starts with a discussion

1:33:13

about 1987 and then the next paragraph to 1982 and then the following paragraph

1:33:18

1979 that kind of of way of looking at things so it's in an ahistorical or at least an anachronistic way or ways that

1:33:25

we're not used to from a western perspective I remember when I reviewed the book The sister by his name is

1:33:31

escape me Yun I don't know uh gentleman uh professor in United States of Korean

1:33:37

gentleman but he he reviewed the uh he wrote the book on the Sister Kim yoong oh right um the professor at uh T

1:33:45

University yes that's correct s Yun Lee I think thank you very much song y Le I apologize for getting the name wrong but

1:33:51

in that I said the chronology that it's all over the place he's going from here to here from here to here and I I

1:33:57

criticized it for that at the time and then after reading this part from my eyes I was like that's kind of interesting maybe there's something in

Does the SK left love North Korea?

1:34:03

that where we see history differently one is this long line of events like from 0 ad to 1 2 3 4 5 and we count up

1:34:12

in this linear Western fashion and in Korea there's an expression uh

1:34:19

C what's the correct is that close yes

1:34:28

when the crow flies the pear drops right and so when these two things

1:34:34

happen they're not related to each other there's no cause and effect and somebody asked me like what's the English version

1:34:39

of this and I asked a chat room of 400 British people what's the equivalent of

1:34:44

when the crow flies the pear drops and I was like nobody could think of one and

1:34:49

it was these series of unrelated events I I thought Brian was doing something very interesting by talking about how

1:34:55

people see time how we approach it and maybe it's a as he says a cultural rather than intellectual difference that

1:35:01

we come up with these um that was interesting to me guys

1:35:07

there's there's just a couple of things that I I want to go we we've been going for a while does anyone else want to

1:35:13

throw a topic out there before I move on a

1:35:18

topic the Democracy the fifth column the okim I've got all of these and and

1:35:26

comparing Korea to Germany uh yeah okay

1:35:31

well South Korean left Lov North Korea I I think I asked Charlie what do you

1:35:37

disagree with and you know Brian has done this thing about where in South Korea there's a lot of underground love

1:35:43

for kimil song and uh this is the feeling I get I may be interpreting him wrong but um that in South Korea there's

1:35:50

this kind of fifth column there's this people will they said Kim H man here and

1:35:55

they'll go through this in the streets openly praising uh Kim jongil when

1:36:03

the the's when the flower chanem and Blossoms um no um Rose of

1:36:08

Sharon just said yeah with the rose of Sharon blossoms I'm very sorry um now

1:36:15

I'm not sure I think I get the feeling that he's overexaggerating domestic South Korean love for North Korean

1:36:21

leader I think it's probably worth asking on what grounds every left South Korean president Kim n and they've all

1:36:29

gone to pongyang I don't think it's out of love and adoration I think it's more sort of maybe real politic or getting

1:36:35

legitimacy from the voters you know we'll do that but I'm not sure um of my

1:36:41

assertion that there's the left love North Korea and there's a there's a fifth column here that's my well I I

1:36:49

think there's another way of looking you can say that it's that the left it's not that they love but that they find a way

1:36:56

to apologize for everything that North Korea does they they find a way to be soft on North Korea every time now if

1:37:01

you you know if looking at it objectively or from outside Korea uh it

1:37:07

seems ridiculous that in 2024 people who have family members on

1:37:12

the other side of the Border still cannot send a letter or make a phone call or type an

1:37:19

email that the the the the two careers both have laws that forbid people to-

1:37:25

people contact right the the National Security Act here in South grit that's been in in uh valid since 1949 forbids

1:37:33

South Koreans to to have contact with North Koreans without specific permission from the government so

1:37:38

traveling to North Korea writing to a North Korean meeting a North Korean in a third country technically these things

1:37:44

can all be illegal same in North Korea uh it it's just seem ridiculous that we don't have any postal exchange whereas

1:37:50

in Germany right up until 1989 you were able to send a letter to your relative on the other side of the boorder now

1:37:56

sure those letters were read they were opened there was probably some censorship going on there there was

1:38:01

control but at least you could contact people and there hasn't been on the most basic level and I think that that's one

1:38:08

of the I mean when you find that there are people like Pang nakak Chong who are very uh bullish on the idea of there

1:38:15

being a a a Korean Confederacy think hang on we haven't even got the most basic of things yet like a postal

1:38:21

exchange like well I come back to it like a postal change it just seems so basic to not

1:38:28

even have that how can you talk about things like uh economic cooperation or

1:38:34

Building A Confederacy um and of course the uh the separated family reunions

1:38:40

what a joke when was the last separated family reunion that we had between the two careers if the if North Korea were

1:38:45

serious about it and if the South Korean government were were really re um passionate about this project they would

1:38:51

have tried their hardest to regularize uh family exchanges family

1:38:58

meetings decades ago and yet we see you know at best I think there were 10 maybe

1:39:03

12 rounds of reunions and those reunions are here's a few hours to have a meal together and then get back on the bus

1:39:09

and say goodbye and you'll never see each other again that's the end of your life and we really want to wait for the crying photos this like tragedy porn

1:39:15

that we're going to put up to get it that's that's what people want from IT cameras around yeah yeah the cameras no

1:39:21

so yeah I I think it's not so much that people that there's a large number of people in South Korea who love kenong

1:39:27

but they they find a way to make excuses for bad behavior by North Korea and and

1:39:33

Myers is concerned uh and this is where I'm not sure I want to see more evidence here that my is concerned that South

1:39:40

Koreans could be led blindfolded into a relationship with North Korea that they

1:39:46

will later reject will relat a regret sorry so he's worried that this idea of a of a confederation or a low level

1:39:53

Federation between North and South Korea that suddenly you could find yourself in a situation where North Korea is making

1:39:59

demands upon South Korea and says you pay us more money you stop talking to America send the American troops on that

1:40:04

kind of thing and and that South Koreans will will regret it some of them will then turn up in front of the US Embassy

1:40:09

calling for the us to come in and help again and the Americans may turn around and say well we're not so interested anymore I mean it's an interesting

1:40:15

scenario would make a great movie or a novel but I don't know I don't know if there's enough evidence in to say that

1:40:21

Korea's actually I mean in the five years of the munjin administration I didn't see any single steps towards um A

1:40:30

Confederacy actually being built or or a federation just as I have some people

1:40:36

who I know back in the Netherlands who are concerned about the Islam as islamization of of

1:40:42

Europe in the last 20 years I can't really see that much movement in that

1:40:48

direction either you know so I see people concerned about it but I don't really see a lot of change in that direction

1:40:54

I remember seeing uh president Moon's plans for the the trains which was a a takeover from ker jun's plans as well

1:41:01

for trains to go up the east and west coast and to link them and go through a North Korean Corridor into it but I

1:41:07

agree with you on that that fiveyear thing I think you make a beautiful statement about this has got

1:41:14

to start with People to People contact why can't people contact each other why can't they they write a letter it's um

1:41:20

it's not about these Grand dreams of unification

Closing thoughts

1:41:30

arey but what we can do is we can we can talk to people and we can feel them and we can see them and and yet that very

1:41:36

basic thing is is denied and just as when Brian says towards the end something along the lines

1:41:46

of I value South he m is saying that he values South Korea more than the average

1:41:52

citizen you know hearing what you say there Jacko is is again another fascinating thing because you're you're

1:41:58

valuing this connection between people that's otherwise otherwise missed and in that same uh chapter chapter 20 he says

1:42:05

uh you have a country a republic which um fought back Invasion by a

1:42:12

totalitarian enemy and created this this wonderful economic growth now if that's

1:42:19

a country that doesn't deserve love then what country does right that that the

1:42:25

Republic of Korea deserves more love than so many other nations just based on results alone that's the title of the

1:42:31

book yeah the unloved Republic yeah that's a nice translation on the Fly By the way sir oh no I think I think he

1:42:37

used it as a title at his talk back in 20110 no no no you just did reading from there yes yes yes I'm not congratulating

1:42:43

you on translating um guys give me some final thoughts on this book this process

1:42:49

it doesn't have to be deep it can be whatever you want but I think you know we've not done every part of this book

1:42:54

but I think we've talked around it enough to to at least make people aware of what Brian is doing um give us give

1:43:02

us some closing thoughts on this Charlie you want to you want to go first um so just going back to what I

1:43:10

said before about how you know Koreans say Y is the way how sensitive Koreans are about Outsiders talking about Korean

1:43:17

politics and Korean history it's this isn't it's this is not support of Brian

1:43:24

Myers it's it's true that a lot of Koreans just don't know basic Korean

1:43:30

history and uh it it's it's difficult I I was also a part of that group but I'm

1:43:35

you know obviously I studied it in University so now I know a little bit but there's so much to be studied and

1:43:42

there's so much that uh that Koreans don't know that maybe we should because

1:43:48

it's uh it is an important part of our history

1:43:54

um and I think what he's doing and what other people I think what what's

1:44:00

happening right now well we're doing we're we're talking about it and so it

1:44:06

shouldn't matter whether the person talking about Korean politics is Korean whether they've been to the Army or

1:44:13

whether you know whether they're you or you or whoever listens to this and has an

1:44:19

opinion about it and has something to say on uh say on the on the subject in the comment section just you

1:44:26

know you share ideas and you talk about it because at least we're willing to do

1:44:31

so and that's his point is that um I'm willing to talk about the things that

1:44:38

you guys aren't so you guys should at least be willing to listen and so we are here and we're here to talk about it so

1:44:45

I think more people should be willing to listen and um the at the end of the day

1:44:51

uh these are all just um uh his his idea of what Korea is right

1:44:57

it's through the lens of Brian Meers and obviously you've spent a lot of time in

1:45:02

Korea right so you obviously have your idea of what Korea is as a nation and you too and um us uh as Korean citizens

1:45:12

we like we may have differing ideas and opinions of what Korea is um but we need

1:45:20

to move away from this idea of the one me J the pure race this idea of Udi

1:45:25

should not be limited to the Korean people like Jonathan can be Udi and and

1:45:32

you know may maybe like you know a lot of people are now moving towards that uh

1:45:38

towards that view but this idea of Udi isn't just the Korean people like we

1:45:45

we're all people at the end of the day and so I think that's that's what I take

1:45:50

away from this book and overall I did I really did enjoy it I I I think it's

1:45:56

it's it's worth uh it's worth to read whether uh you agree with it with the

1:46:02

ideas presented in the book or not whoever is listening to this it definitely is worth the read what well said Charlie one of the

1:46:10

more controversial articles that I wrote recently was can Korea have an ethnic

1:46:15

Revolution very dodgy title and it brought back a lot of lot of support U

1:46:21

but also a lot of blowback from some Korean people people because I said Korea successfully had three revolutions

1:46:26

thus far it first had an economic re Revolution it went from dirt poor to very rich and then it had a political

1:46:33

revolution it went from dictatorship to democracy and these are genuine revolutions from this end to that then

1:46:38

it had a cultural revolution it went from Korea being nobody wanted Korea Korea meant cheap and now if you put a K

1:46:45

in front of everything wow Korea's cool it's had three successful Revolutions in the last 50 odd years and that's

1:46:52

incredible the next one I'm not saying it has to do it but I questioned Can it have an

1:46:57

ethnic Revolution it's the wrong title but I just used it cuz it was Punchy but can it have a revolution in terms of what it means to be Korean I'm not

1:47:04

saying it should or it will but I put that out there that it's done threee thus far and so if it did happen in the

1:47:11

future it wouldn't surprise me because very little surprises me uh in much of

1:47:17

what ker is is capable of um and I think that's to what you're saying there Charlie in terms of I've also got this

1:47:24

question of if we all wrote our own book on Korea what would our titles be because we all see Korea differently and

1:47:29

this is how Brian sees it this Haring ptim Hannan Kong the the unloved Republic and our books would be

1:47:36

different not better or worse but different you put them all together you'd have something um II you you've

1:47:42

had to read some of this book this book what's what's going on for you any final words for me was also pretty new cuz uh

1:47:50

I think since the Korean text history like history textbook I think it was my

1:47:57

first time actually reading it by myself and like without any like forcing me to

1:48:02

read it and it was also pretty new for me to learn like it was very new first

1:48:08

of all because I never really talked about those political issues with any of like people around me for example I

1:48:15

think as you said it became suddenly became a controversial thing to even

1:48:20

talk about it or even mention about it and so I don't know what my

1:48:26

friends think of those histories and even with my family it is usually my

1:48:31

grandpa grandfather who I can talk about this with freely and it also left me

1:48:37

with some questions about how Korea was like relying on the US and how it might

1:48:42

be risky in the future and and I also thought what I was what I'm supposed to

1:48:47

do as a Korean Citizen and perhaps I thought that I definitely need to have much more enough

1:48:54

backgrounds in order to even talk about it with anyone so I think yeah I need to

1:49:00

gain some more knowledge too I think it's very important what you said unb and I think it's important that

1:49:06

people remember that you've not read these or had these conversations before

1:49:11

Korean people don't really sit around and have these conversations I'm generalizing 50 million people old

1:49:17

people might talk about politics like you said your grandfather or grandmother but generally young people in and school

1:49:23

and classes and you're not talking about this stuff and yet it's so important and so as you're sitting here it's it's

1:49:30

completely new for you I guess isn't it you're trying to work out like pongy that good kind we want answers and

1:49:36

they're difficult but you have to find your answers exactly I think uh people should read

1:49:43

this book a lot more I've been sad to uh be I've been unable to find any reviews

1:49:51

of it in the South Kore Media or any mention of it in the S and that makes me sad I'm disappointed in it I'd like to

1:49:56

see more people read it discuss it love it or hate it at least read it and then talk about it as Charlie says right you

1:50:02

find your own opinion but but engage with the ideas because I've not seen anything about Korea written in this way

1:50:10

with these ideas uh before so whatever people think about it at least go out and have a look at the book and and and

1:50:15

see what you make of it uh and you know I I wish that Brian would do a few more interviews in Korean television perhaps

1:50:21

and that that might get a bit of a buzz happening around the book maybe this podcast will as well we hope so or at

1:50:27

least I do uh and then another final thought there coming back to the word gag Korean South Koreans tend not to say

1:50:35

urag they say they don't say urag North Koreans

1:50:40

say urag yeah I wonder historically and we're too young to know did South

1:50:46

Koreans in the first second third fourth Republic did they say urri or have have South Kens never said this since 1948 I

1:50:52

don't know what the answer is do you Happ to know uh have you ever heard anyone say that no and I don't think

1:50:58

previous generations would have either okay that's my opinion but I don't I don't just I just can't picture it

1:51:03

happening and and I I think that uh the word gag in South

1:51:10

Korea has been tainted a little bit you know that um South Koreans are familiar

1:51:17

or at least older South greens are familiar with the different Generations or the iterations of the G the

1:51:23

j j j so and and these were uh parts of

1:51:28

South Korean history that are not the best and brightest because you know these are constitutions that were

1:51:34

Rewritten by dictators at times and so I think there's a reluctance to use that

1:51:39

word g partly because it's tainted by that association with these everchanging

1:51:45

constitutions and presidence for life kind of thing and I wonder whether that's maybe an answer why the word is

1:51:51

so un loved but it doesn't answer why the state should be so unloved I think the

1:51:57

state uh deserves the Loyalty of its people in every country in every state I mean otherwise why be a state why not

1:52:06

just you know uh have the president resign uh and and just join the next

1:52:12

country you hippie Jacko no borders Mr Zeto um I think it's a very important

1:52:20

point that you make about the Republic the word Republic or being tainted or

1:52:25

being associated with periods of great flux and change and nothing stable it seemed very written in that way um I had

1:52:33

a similar question the other days what did people in the 1700s call the joson

1:52:38

dynasty did they and did they talk about the state unless they were the Korean in

1:52:44

a village in in chador if they weren't uh a government official did they talk

1:52:51

about the nation or did they just talk about their Village and occasionally the king that's you know I'm not sure about

1:52:57

that but I would encourage both un and Charlie to to popularize the phrase Ur

1:53:03

use it obviously obviously David and I it's forbidden for us we can't possibly say it because we are not citizens we

1:53:09

are not gmen we're not citizens of the gag we're not gmen but you two I would

1:53:15

like to to beseech you to popularize that phrase make your friends and parents and and and loved ones say it

1:53:21

and then maybe it'll on and maybe it'll start to get the love it

1:53:26

deserves there's a lovely bit I I knew you were the right person to ask for this Jacko I love spending time with you

1:53:33

oh thank you David um I I'll just say on this that I I agree with what you've said uh all of you two phrases that I

1:53:40

liked from this book one um was this when the origins of War are complicated historians try to simplify them when the

1:53:47

origins of War are simple historians try to complicate them I thought when I when

1:53:52

I read that I thought that was brilliant um another one that I underlined was uh

1:53:59

in in the Korean obviously I've translated it as best I could those who cannot paint gray cannot be a painter

1:54:06

and this also applies to historians that historians who cannot be gray should not

1:54:11

be historians because in the stories that we tell it's not a Marvel movie

1:54:16

there's not very much black and white but there's a lot of gray the front cover of this book is gray um I I've

1:54:24

really enjoyed this there's lots in this book that we haven't covered by the way there we haven't talked about um notu

1:54:30

being leer than the left we haven't talked about the descriptions of uh Kim Yong ham and Kim de Jung and everything

1:54:37

else so that there's a lot still in this I hope more people read it write it put some English translations up in Korean

1:54:45

media for everybody as well of course um can I say something about that quote about the painting of the gray that why

1:54:51

he brings that in is he Brian throughout the book points to various myths uh ways

1:54:59

of Storytelling about the Republic which are very clearly black or white I mean

1:55:04

basically everyone in kangju was peaceful and and on the side of good uh and every paratrooper was was bad um

1:55:12

every North Korean is is bad but you know these very s of simple black and white narratives and that's why he

1:55:18

brings in sazan here that says though actually history is full of gray just just like we talked about PK chongi

1:55:23

earlier yes he brought Korea through a wonderful period of of amazing economic development but also he was a dictator

1:55:31

and some people did get killed for that and other people who um who ran businesses that lost his favor were

1:55:38

forced to sell or give their businesses to other people so there were some challs that could have been big chealls

Tattoos

1:55:44

now but they don't exist anymore because Park forced them to sell so yeah it's everything's gray it history is very

1:55:50

gray very complex uh no less so in Korea than anywhere else and yeah and history

1:55:55

only agreed I'm glad you said the the the painter's name because I wasn't sure of the pronunciation pul say own thank

1:56:02

you um history only gives us the negative as well just like the Daily News we we write about when bad things

1:56:09

happen we write about bad things and the the news today tells us bad things um

1:56:14

but history rarely tells us the good things history doesn't tell us hey you know there are some nice things happened

1:56:20

today somebody smiled at a person on on the bus and somebody did something well and when you look through Korean history

1:56:26

you'll find Tales of um massacres and dictatorship and oppression and and

1:56:33

suppression and all of these dastardly dark and devilishly bad things to read

1:56:38

but that's what history gives us sometimes and we miss the good and we miss the gray and the ambiguous and uh I

1:56:45

think that in this conversation we've found a bit of gray amongst ourselves and a bit of color celebrate the gray

1:56:53

in I just want to say I will not be getting a tattoo

1:56:59

of P Chi uh he's about will

1:57:05

instead Oh no just in case uh you know some someone watching this wants to come after me I uh I'm not an avid supporter

1:57:14

um I will I may get another tattoo of e chin but let's leave it at that I I

1:57:20

won't be getting a tattoo shout out to usin not the P joh there's something that's really

1:57:25

changed since I came to career in 1996 no one had tattoos in 1996 unless there were gangsters and no one talked about

1:57:31

getting tattoos in 1996 and now suddenly uh here we have somebody who said yes

1:57:37

I've got one and I'm going to get more and even women have them now in increas more than men more more women have

1:57:44

tattoos than men according to statistics are there some stats now oh hello one of the linguistic things is interesting cuz

1:57:50

if you ask somebody say if I ask my my wife or that generation they'll still call them often munin which is the older

1:57:57

word it's also associated with slavery and Jon Dynasty and criminal putting

1:58:02

branding criminals in a way they would put them on their faces right they brand them whereas tattoo is very modern so

1:58:08

people might be reluctant to talk about munin tattoos so they're using the word tattoo in Korean yes yeah tattoo We

1:58:16

Still Still Elite I want to do a show on tattoos because like when um when Koreans when International students come

1:58:22

and get them here they're often done illegally and like you know you have to go and get the address and you go and

1:58:27

meet somebody and then you go into the thing it's quite Shady yeah it's quite Shady yeah do you want to uh advertise

1:58:33

your tattoo pal for questions place them in the comments in the YouTube here thank you

1:58:41

very much guys thank you thank you and that's it relax good good I'm going to eat a jelly yes have a jelly well done

1:58:52

[Music]

====


David Tizzard
22.4K subscribers

=======
13 Comments



Pinned by David Tizzard

@KingKyong1 month ago
Thank you for having me on - Enjoyed being on the podcast! I urge everyone to read this book, even though it tackles some difficult concepts and issues, it is very accessible and easy to read!




3









Reply












@jwhan20861 month ago
Charlie's experience in the ROK army is interesting, as much as the topic itself is. Even though I was born in Seoul, South Korea, I often found myself odd with my fellows in the army. This was because I have a Northerner identity. Of course, it is hard to compare the experience of a self-identified Northerner born in the South to that of a South Korean citizen born in New Delhi when they were doing military service. But still interesting to listen to the story of Charlie who was born and raised in a different cultural background and then forced to join a cult named the Army. On the topic, interestingly, I say "Our republic(우리 공화국)" referring to the Republic of Korea. In English, I prefer saying "I'm from the Republic of Korea," especially when I was in the UK and asked where I came from. (But usually, I had to explain I meant South Korea, often adding the South is the good Korea where Samsung or LG coming from, while the North is the Kim's one.) And I do also do it in Korean, since I believe in republicanism(I'm not talking about the American conservative party, but a political idea). But it is true that saying "our republic" is hardly accepted by my family and friends, partially because republicanism has only a tiny place to stand in the South Korean two-party political system - no one's friends could be everyone's enemy, really. Clearly, the South Korean public is reluctant to talk about the foundation of the Republic, because it has always been a subject of controversy. I support the 1919 theory, which is an idea that the Republic of Korea founded in 1919 as the result of the First March movement. So I often argue that we should call the 1st of March "Independence Day" because we declared it that day, and on the day we must celebrate the newborn of the Republic in Korean history. But this sort of opinion is not so popular. My hardliner conservative father and some of my conservative friends blame me for being an accomplice of pro-North Korea propagandists (I still don't understand their logic). On the other hand, my other friends who are so-called progressive or so-called liberal sometimes oppose my idea because some parts of my argument acknowledge Rhee Seung-man as the first president of the Republic. Oh God. In this sense, the Korean narrative of history seems to be mostly designed to work as a tool for domestic politics. That's why I sometimes insist "History has not yet become history in Korea. It is still a politics." Since I support republicanism, I welcome and support immigrants' rights. So, having an ethno-based national identity is, in my opinion, something we should oppose. And in this context, I see the overall environment has become much more comfortable. But the North Korean issue is a really tricky question. I'm really in favour of the reunification, or I say, "The Third Unification," more precisely. I have been developing five arguments to support it, and one of the arguments is closely linked to national identity. But more and more ethnic-based national identity would be eradicated, more and more Koreans would become less interested in the unification, or even some would oppose the idea. Family ties to those in the North would fade away over time. But cultural, ethnic, and linguistic ties will remain as strong in the future(and it was the argument of Prof. John Delury on his idea of why Korean would want to have unification). So I see there is a potential challenge for South Korea over this issue Here's my question. As a scholar and Korea watcher, what do you think how South Korean society will respond to this challenge?Read more




4









Reply















·
3 replies






@reehelen1 month ago (edited)
Daehanminguk is the name of ROK in Korean, as Joseon was that of the Joseon Dynasty in the 1700s for the people of Korean Peninsula. Republic is a political system or a ruling type of a country and for the Daehanminguk it is a State up until now in my humble view. Therefore, the Book title should be reconsidered. Otherwise




2









Reply















·
1 reply







@DavidTizzard1 month ago
I understood that some people referred to it as the Yi Dynasty until about 3 decades ago... Certainly many of the old history books I read say that...










Reply













@samanthav31411 month ago
I think Koreans feel like Korea's origin is ancient. Her primordial myths come from somewhere. The date South Korea became a nation is the day of separation. On some level, it's recent, a source of national trauma and psychologically avoided...I think maybe but not sure.




3









Reply















·
1 reply






@jayh84351 month ago
잘 봤습니다. 모든 논점에 대해서 몇 가지 의견을 내고 싶지만 그건 의미가 없을 것 같네요. 다만 젊은 한국인 친구가 말하는 한국인들은 증오를 사랑하는 것 같다는 말에 일면 동의하지만 사실 그건 어쩌면 모든 인간의 본성이라서 미국도 영국도 심지어 아프리카도 마찬가지라 생각합니다. 좀 쓸데없는 자조적 생각이란 의견을 가져봅니다. 다만 이런 질문을 던지고 싶네요. 혹시 영국이 지배한 식민지 국가 인도를 식민지가 끝나고 열등한 민족이라고 영국 본국에서 차별하고 무시한 일이 있었나요? 혹은 정치인들이 나와서 인도인들은 정말 극도로 싫어 이런 적이 있었나 궁금하네요. 혹여 프랑스가 아프리카인들이 자국에 와서 살면 국가적으로 차별하고 관리하고 무시한 적이 있었나요? 혹은 독일이 폴란드인들을 본국에서 차별한 적이 있었나요? 그런데 사실 일본은 한국인들에게 해방이 되고 나서 아주 오랫동안 지문을 날인하고 그것에 따라 한국인이란 피를 가지면 일본 사회에서 살기 힘들게 사회적으로 지속적인 박해를 하고 욕하고 힘들게 한 게 사실입니다. 그리고 혹시 저기 세 나라의 예처럼 그들은 인도의 문화와 아프리카의 문화와 폴란드의 문화를 정신까지 박살내고 없애려고 했나요? 이를테면 창씨개명처럼 말이죠. 물론 언어를 프랑스어나 영어를 사용하게 했다는 것은 인정하지만.. 제 아버지 세대는 다들 일본어를 사용했고, 저도 일상생활에서 어렸을 때는 일본 단어를 심심찮게 사용했죠. 그때 어른들은 다들 "조선놈들은 다 병신 같아 역시 일본놈들 따라가려면 멀었어." 이랬죠. 어느 순간 자국민에 대한 열등감으로 가득찼던 순간이 있었어요. 하다못해 김치나 된장을 먹는 우리 민족이 진짜 열등한 민족이구나 생각하는 그런 시대도 있었어요. 즉 자존감의 상실이 식민지의 결과물이었죠. 전 이런 것들이 다른 다른 식민지 국가와 다른 outlier가 된 게 아닌가 생각합니다. 아무튼 동지란 단어를 쓴 젊은 출연자 분에게 약간 놀랬고, 문재인 대통령이 반일을 아주 정치적으로 잘 이용했다는 생각도 듭니다. 전 한국이 더 발전하기 위해서는 일본과 협력 관계로 나아가야 한다고 봅니다. 이제는 과거는 청산할 필요가 있다고 봅니다. 좌파 정치인들이 세월호나 이태원이나 일본 이슈와 같은 것으로 정치적으로 이용하는 것을 보고 싶지 않네요. 지금 한국 정치는 좌파는 양의 탈을 쓴 늑대고, 우파는 병신의 탈을 쓴 병신이란 생각이 들긴 합니다.Read more




4









Reply















·
1 reply







@DavidTizzard1 month ago
우리 대화에 참여 하고 있기 때문에 감사합니다. 모든 의견들이 중요하다고 생각합니다. 특히 당신은 젊은 국민들을 목소리와 생각을 잘 듣고 당신의 개인적인 관점을 나눴습니다. 일반적으로 저는 일본 사람들을 좋아하고 일본 문화도 좋아합니다. 그래도 당신의 말 한 것은 맞는 것 같습니다. 정치인들이 그럼 이슈를 유명세를 위해서 자주 사용하는 것 같습니다.




2





Reply













@eriksvensson60541 month ago
Koreas ethno-nationalism is based




2









Reply















·
1 reply







@DavidTizzard1 month ago
afTranslate to English




1





Reply