동아시아의 평화와 화해의 정치학 Scrapbook: My life, covering Israeli war crimes for decades | Gideon Levy

2025-06-03

My life, covering Israeli war crimes for decades | Gideon Levy | UNAPOLO...

My life, covering Israeli war crimes for decades | Gideon Levy | UNAPOLOGETIC

Middle East Eye

38,132 views Mar 26, 2025

✪ Members first on March 25, 2025

In this episode of UNAPOLOGETIC, we speak with Gideon Levy, one of Israel’s most outspoken and controversial journalists. A longtime Haaretz journalist and columnist, Levy has spent decades documenting the occupation and challenging dominant Israeli narratives. We discuss Israel’s latest assault on Gaza, Netanyahu’s political calculations, and how Israeli society has responded. We also explore how the Israeli media and culture has eroded Israeli society, the future of Gaza and the West Bank, Palestinian leadership, and what a just resolution to the conflict might look like. Finally, Levy reflects on his own political transformation and what it has cost him to tell the truth in his society.

UNAPOLOGETIC is hosted by Ashfaaq Carim

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Chapters

00:00 Intro

02:30 Israel's latest escalation in Gaza

06:50 Israel was always going to break the ceasefire

09:30 Why is there no opposition to the war in Israel

19:30 Israeli society's future

21:30 The fate of the Palestinians

27:30 How Gideon's perceptions have changed

37:20 How covering the Intifada changed Gideon

43:10 Every Israeli government tried to undermine Oslo

50:05 Haaretz

58:05 Has Palestinian leadership failed

01:02:10 What's the path to Palestinian liberation

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Intro

people so many of them are so convinced that after the sth of October Israel has

the right to do whatever it Wass Without Limits no moral limits no legal limits

nothing you and Israeli you obviously have kids who who live in Israel what's

what do you think is the future of the society going to be like if an Israel of

2025 to maintain a coalition you need to kill dozens and

hundreds and thousands and maybe tens of thousands of more Palestinians in Gaza

what did you think Israel will be be like in 2025 when you were working in in

in 1979 for Shimon pz we were told and on a systematic basis that we are the

David and the Arabs are the golad the question should be what kind of Israel

will be in 50 years and who wants to live in such an Israel is there anything else you want to you want to say

something I may not have asked you uh which you think is relevant I don't think that there is anything you didn't

ask in one hour and 10

minutes hi welcome to another episode of unapologetic I'm your host ashah kareim and I'm very pleased today to be

speaking to Gideon Levy Gideon welcome to the show thank you shag I'm very happy to be with you uh Gideon won't be

a stranger to many of our viewers Gideon Levy's been a journalist and a colonist for haret for decades uh before that he

actually started off his career as a a spokesperson for Shimon Perez before reporting in the in the West Bank and

occupied territories his journalism has been very brave and very divisive uh at

least in Israel um so Gideon thank you for your time thank you for having me uh

it's going to be a long discussion as usual uh we're going to be speaking about obviously Israel's latest escalation in Gaza what's driving that

and what the repercussions for that will be but we're also going to be looking back at the last 16 months uh Israel

Israeli society's response to what's occurring why that's happening um we're going to be talking about the future of

Gaza and the West Bank and Israel um and we're also going to be touching a little bit about you and your journey and and

and how your own perceptions uh have changed and and your observations um sort of throughout your career um so

yeah it's really really a pleasure to be speaking to you again thank you uh just just to start us off with so um just two

days ago uh Israel again Unleashed a lot of H on Gaza um this is after 16 days of

Israel's latest escalation in Gaza

starvation 400 people killed 180 children um what do you understand I mean it's been suggested and and

probably rightly so that this is a power play by Netanyahu to kind of keep the Coalition together he's ruling Coalition

together what's your views on that and and is there more to it than than just keeping the Coalition

together yeah there is more to it because behind this and people tend to ignore it behind this h a very

dangerous and sick ideology is hidden because if in Israel of

2025 to maintain a coalition you need to kill dozens and

hundreds and thousands and maybe tens of thousands of more Palestinians in

Gaza so something is much more sick than you know those talking about maintaining

Coalition no the name of the game is that killing Palestinians becomes a tool

for all kind of political purposes and I really don't know how

Gaza can can can stand it one more time I mean those people who we see now

running away on their lives in long long

envoys no no idea where to run and and where is a safe place

what more will those people suffer in their life only to satisfy some sick

crazy Sentiments of some Israelis I mean we are we are speaking

about keeping the Coalition together I mean and you rightfully mentioned that it's it's kind of a sick gesture that people need to do this but there may be

viewers out there who aren't familiar with the mechanics of just how this works so can you just run us through um

what what what me and you assume the viewer already knows just how this attack keeps netanyahu's right- wing

Coalition together and then we'll we'll examine it further this is a coalition of of's party that could the biggest

party with some right-wing fascist small

parties without whom there is no majority in the parliament one of those

components left the Coalition a few months ago very few

months ago and say that he might come back to the

Coalition if the war will be renewed now in two weeks the budget

should be approved in the parliament if it's not approved the government Falls and you know surprise

surprise two weeks before it nanyu renews the war and Mr benir is back on

track back in his uh office in the National Security ministerium

and here you have the whole thing I mean as as simple as this okay so there's

there's there's one aspect that's I mean that's just thanks for clarifying that for our viewers just the fact that n is trying to keep his Coalition together

ahead of a budget speech and Ben Ben G coming back but there'll be cynics that that out there that are saying that we

always knew his Fire won't last that Israel's especially the fire rights and not just necessarily the far right which

we'll get to as well um their desire to now ethnically cleanse Gaza um this was flouted in back in the day with Biden

and blinkin when the genocide just started it's already been expressed by Trump who obviously also has allies with

the Arab world who have rejected this notion and so he's kind of hot on one day with the ethnic cleansing on the

other days he's not so hot but just speak us through that as well I mean yes

this is definitely a desperate move to keep the Coalition together but in your view there this I mean did you really

think did anyone really think did that that the ceasefire was going to be sustainable or was it just sort of given

that at some point Israel is going to as usual try to try to break uh the ceasefire and now that Gaza is in many

ways a A Wasteland there's not a lot of infrastructure they'll they'll push ahead with this agenda of making it very

difficult for for the Palestinians to live there look I don't know about others but I kept on saying that theia

will implement the the first phase and will never implement it second and the

Israel was always going to break the ceasefire

third phase of the agreement this was clear from day one my only hope for

moment but just for a moment was that the new American Administration will force him to do so because this

Administration has the capability to force him and I had really a stupid hope

that they will do so but very shortly later I realized that this hope is no

factual basis and Americans just gave netan the green light to do whatever he

wants in Gaza and he here we are H facing the renewal of the of the war no

hope no no no surprise no surprise at all you've

you've covered many of Israel's assaults on Gaza um obviously this one is very different it also is after October 7th

which was also very different to any attack by Hamas on Israel so but I mean even given all of that and given the

scale of the attack on October 7th are you surprised by just how violent

Israel's response has been in the last 16 months no I'm not surprised and I'm even not surprised

that the word let it happen and I'm not surprised that the Americans were so impotent in preventing

it don't forget that Donald Trump came to office only a few weeks ago but all

this war there was this passive support of of another Administration supposedly

a more moderate one a more liberal one a more aware of Human Rights and and

international law and all this was just a hollow words

and Israel had the green light with the former Administration has it now to go

wild in Israel after the 7th of October with justification or without it

there is no opposition to any kind of War to any kind of atrocities through

the Palestinians to any kind of Bloodshed as long as it is in Gaza or in

the West Bank you you've mentioned that the Israeli Society there's no opposition to

war right um tell me more about that I mean is this is the case of Israeli

Society losing its moral compass is this a result of the educational institutions propaganda media control how did Israeli

Why is there no opposition to the war in Israel

Society get there so it's the outcome of really years and years of ination and the

brainwash mainly by the media much more than the education system because the

media is also more effective in Israel but in any case we could saw it

could see it happening because it's a process it didn't start now when you

look backwards at all the wars that Israel launched against Palestinians or

against others there was always automatic support in the beginning many

times later on there was some opposition but in the first phase including the first Lebanese War and the second leonis

which both were catastrophical also from the point of view of Israel the support

was almost from wall to wall later on there was an opposition in Israel it's

much much more popular to go for a war with justification without justification

with legitimization without it much easier in terms of public opinion to

launch a war rather than to do a minimal step toward peace toward equality toward

Justice this will always face an enormous objection in Israeli public

opinion just to sort of give us an insight into into what Israeli Society is like you wrote a column recently

about undocumented Palestinian workers who were hunted down effectively in in a mall they were they were in Israel

working illegally um and there was almost a Manhunt for them and almost I mean your your article brings it out

very much how there was almost a spectacle and a bloodlust uh by patrons of the mall by mall management by the

society on the whole to kind of uh get at these Palestinians and you wrote that you basically compared the Palestinians

who are now because you can tell us I mean you will tell us about this but just to give our audience a perspective they since October 7th Palestinians West

Bank cannot go into Israel just to work as they were so obviously they in need of employment and money and so you wrote

you compared it to to Jews sneaking out of the ghettos for food can you talk us through first what's happening to these

workers and give us the extent of what what what furo in the mall was all about but secondly the comparison you made

just just tell us about the comparison and why you invoked uh the ghetto uh the waro

ghetto Gaza is a ghetto no doubt about it and and the West Bank after the 7th

of October is a ghetto Gaza is much worse ghetto the

West Bank has still some Outlets toward Jordan but no Palestinian from the West

Bank can get into Sovereign Israel which means that hundreds of thousands of

Palestinians lost their jobs and hundreds of thousands if not millions of Palestinians in the West Bank not in

Gaza in the West Bank are living now 17 months without jobs without any income

nothing without any perspective because it might last years now with this

government they might keep it as a ghetto for many more years and then desperation is so high

that people just know that they are taking an enormous chance but still they

are sneaking into Israel illegally only to get some some days in work and

then when they are finding some jobs in a mall for example a new mall the

biggest mall in t Aviv which was opened just two days before this incident immediately are the

good Israelis who called the police because they identify a Palestinian there and immediately in front of the

cameras obviously Israel is showing them being led to custody and later on to

deportation and maybe staying in jail for a while humilating them treating

them as as terrorists While most of them have nothing to do with Terror we even

have a we have a term to call them Shabah

illegal worker we don't even call them by names we have this term like they

were I don't know what by the way I must remind you that they are

illegal in what is supposed to be also their land it's not like it's a Puerto Ricans

or or venezuelian who penetrate into the United States those are Palestinians who

are still in Old Palestine and I would believe that their right

over this land is equal at least equal to the right of the Jews over this land

and none of them can be illegal like a Jew cannot be illegal in the West Bank a

Palestinian shouldn't be illegal in t Aviv or elsewhere um I mean it's still hard to

imagine uh when because I mean for people who live outside of Israel like myself um because you've heard this and i' I've been interviewing a bunch of

people who say they there isn't really an opposition to the war um we do see protests and the protests are a lot more

about hostages or they about the against the net government but not specifically anti-war protests um can you just

clarify for that is that your sentiment also that there no there aren't really anti-war protests and and if so how like

how did we get there how did we get to a situation where there's a devastating War being launched um even if if members

of society are very angry potentially justifiably angry over what happened in October 7th how do we get to a situation

where you've seen such a devastating war and there are protests to free the hostages there are protests against how

Netanyahu is conducting himself and the government but there isn't really anti-war protests I just just clarify if

that is true and then secondly if it is how did we get there so first of all you say that we see a devastating War but

Israelis don't see it because the media avoided from the Israelis you don't see

Gaza for the last 17 months Israeli media is preoccupied day and night with

the hostages with the soldiers with the Israeli victims with

the injured guys with the families of the hostages with the

mooning and nothing about Gaza you don't see Gaza so first of all Gaza is out of

the picture and out of the reality and Israelis are very happy about it obviously they don't want to see Gaza so

maybe they somewhere in the back of their mind they know that some something terrible is going on there but if you

know if you're not exposed to it it's not the same

effect I I just wrote a piece for tomorrow that you know in the last two

days 400 over 400 almost 500 Palestinians were killed in Gaza there's

no Echo to it in Israeli media nothing nothing just the hostages and the risk

for the hostages so first of all it is avoided from Israelis to see it but

that's not the full story because those who want to know can know there are enough sources that could face us with

with what's going on in Gaza there is no opposition to the war because opposition

to the war might irritate most of those who are

protesting there's no position to war because there is no peace camp in Israel

anymore and mainly so after the s of October the 7th of October the damage

that it created to Israeli Society is much bigger than people can imagine

because it really ruined the last remains of a peace Camp the last remain

of a left in Israel people so many of them are so convinced that after the sth

of October Israel has the right to do whatever it wants Without Limits no moral limits no legal limits nothing all

all Gaza areas all Gaza all Gaza carries the responsibility for the sth of

October and the 7th of October was almost the Holocaust this is the mindset and with

this mindset don't you dare to be against the war because we don't want

those people who are against the war or against the occupation or against theart

because then the message will not come it's very nice to protest against netan

it's very nice to protest in favor of releasing the hostages you hardly pay

any political price for it you don't need any courage for it all your peer group will support you and let's put

this controversial issue of contain containing this war and and and facing

those atrocities and Christ let's put it aside because this

might ER spoil that protest given what you're saying about

the fura that that exists in Israel um and sort of the absolute bigotry the the

non empathy the the unwillingness to show a light from the media I mean the whole society almost moving in one

direction towards Fascism and bigotry and and dehumanizing Palestinians who

who do inevitably share share the land uh with them um what realistically does

the future of of Israeli Society look like um do you think there's a turning back moment I mean can we this just

Israeli society's future

going to go on how will Israeli society live with its neighbors with itself what when you I mean you an Israeli you

obviously have kids who who live in Israel what's what do you think is the future of the society going to be like I

can't hide from you that it looks very bad right now but you know we say that the darkest

part of the night is the World Before Dawn and maybe I don't know I think that

most of the damages are irreversible and the next we see it

until now in the last decades that the young Generations were all always more

radical more religious more fascist than the older

generation and this will definitely continue for the short run because I see

the spirit that the the side Guist of of the young generation now it's much worse

it's going only for the worse and for the worse hatred toward Palestinian the humanizing them demonizing them reaches

levels that we never faced before so from this point of view Israel

is going to a very very bad place and many people are troubled by this I'm not

one of those who think that the question should be will Israel exist in 50 years

which is a common question in certain circles I don't think it is a question

the question should be what kind of Israel will be in 50 years and who wants to live in such an

Israel um given what you just said and given that you you it's very difficult

to see the society turning back what do you think will be the fate of the Palestinians in Gaza in a year time two

years time five years time 10 years time I mean I think like a obviously

the time frame is is a marker but it's also irrelevant to some extent but how do you see Gaza recovering um will it be

The fate of the Palestinians

recovering I mean I know these are these are speculations but just given this this marriage of what's occurring in the

Trump Administration how the International Community is largely silent about this there's Netanyahu as

you said earlier on is willing to I mean the society is happy that babies are being killed to keep a coalition together um and

then you put all of that together with what you just said how what what do you see the future of the people of Gaza

being it's not only the people of Gaza obviously it's also the people the West

yeah because we we don't put our attention to what's going on in the West Bank but horrible things are happening

there also under the cover of the war in Gaza listen I know what will not be in

Gaza and here I'm very definite about it it will not turn into a Riviera and it

will not be able I mean the the idea of transferring the people of Gaza will

never succeed so no Riviera and no

transfer my real fear about the future of the Palestinians not only in Gaza also in the West Bank is that

gradually their fate will be very similar to the fate of the Native

Americans a forgotten minority who would live in some kind kind

of bent to St without any rights forever

I know that many people think that finally it will explode finally justice

will prevail finally this struggle will get to some achievements and the

Palestinians will get their rights there are many precedents in history in which it was working this is true but there

are also some examples like the Native Americans and others in which this

struggle did not succeed and there's no guarantee that their struggle we succeed not for the

short run and not for the long run finally the

world is criticizing Israel is making

Israel into a par straight but governments continue to support Israel

and above all obviously the Americans and you know the the attention to the

Palestinians finally will end I mean it repeats itself and people are sick and

tired because it really repeats itself every few years a brutal attack over

Gaza and then Rehabilitation of Gaza and then again destruction in Gaza and mess

killing and genocide you know in a certain stage I'm very afraid that Gaza will be forgotten

and that's the worst that can happen to Gaza uh you mentioned earlier on that

you you believe that ethnic cleansing definitely won't succeed just just tell us a bit bit bit more about that why do

you think it won't succeed why do you think they won't be successful in being able to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians ethnic cleansing is a

mess process ethnic cleansing is happening on a daily basis now in the

West Bank but those are very small scales ethnic cleansing in the way that

Gaza will be emptied from its inhabitants I don't see it

happening first of all because there is no place that will be ready to absorb

them so where will they go and secondly it's by far too big to

to to operate it neither Israel even though the

Americans can can take part in it and especially when

there is no place to push them to because I don't see neither Jordan or

Egypt agreeing by any means I don't see them agreeing because the price will be

too high for their regimes both very fragile regimes and therefore I don't see it

happening but who knows maybe I'm naive and maybe it will take place right now I

see ethnic cleansing in the margins in the southern part of heon in the Jordan

Val only very weak communities the shepherd communities which are expelled by the

Coalition between the settlers and the Army family after Family Village after

Village but it's very limited in scale finally we are dealing with five six

million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza I don't see in

2025 or in 2030 a world which will let it happen

uh I mean you you've you've painted grim a grim reality but a very real reality

right one where Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank more acutely in Gaza are starved are bombed and and evicted in

case of Gaza they everyone's been evicted already um if they're going home now they're going back to tents or Rubble uh but in the West Bank there's

still lots of evictions there were 40,000 people just a week ago uh evacuated from refugee camps across the

West Bank now just just hold that thought but let's go back to to when you

started working uh in the 70s and 80s and you were a spokesperson for for Shimon pz in 78 and ' 82 between those

years when you then were were working for the government and you probably maybe your eyes weren't as open as they

are now but I mean I think Israel was also a different place to what to what what it is now um when you worked then

try to take us back into the mind of a young Gideon Levy who was working for the government and and what did you

think Israel will be be like in 2025 when you were working in in in 1979 for

How Gideon's perceptions have changed

Shimon pz so first of all just a small correction I never worked for the government because shiman P then was the

leader of the Israeli opposition the leader of labor party which was the biggest opposition was in power for so

many years before and after but in those years that I was there it was not in the

government but in labor together with shim perz who was then already the head of the opposition

former minister of defense and Minister of Foreign Affairs and minister of treasure and many many others in any

case I was brainwashed like any other Israeli who was brought up here I saw

nothing I remember maybe I was 20 when I first heard the word nakba never heard about

it I was brought up as a good boy T Aviv like all my friends almost all my

friends there were very very few who saw reality differently we were told and on a

systematic basis that we are the David and the herbs are the goad that the

herbs have only one thing in their mind and this is

to push us into the ocean all of us all Jews in Palestine we were sure that we

are a people of peace because we say shalom each other and the Palestinians

and the Arabs are people of War because nobody told us

that they say Salam the same Shalom that we say they don't love their children

they only were born to kill this was the mindset that we are the few ones another

lie that we are the few ones the weak ones the small ones and they are the strong ones the goat

all this was told us by so many media

education system families and I was sure that that's the

story that's the narrative and it was only after I worked with shim Paris and after I served in

Israeli Army radio station when I joined har and I randomly started to go to the

West Bank and then I realized that the big story is a very hidden one and then

I decided to dedicate my career to cover the hidden story the major story of the

occupation I want to get more into sort of what what it was like covering covering the the occupation as a young

journalist but just before before we go there as this brainwashed person in in

in the 1980s Working For for Shimon Perez what is your idea of what a future

Israel Society looked like um I mean what what was your I mean did you even maybe you didn't even think that far but

if but if I told you back if I asked you back in 1980 in the year 2025 what do you think Israel is going to be like how

did you imagine it what were your own aspirations for the state what were the aspirations of the people around you maybe you didn't have specific

aspirations for the state but just what kind of a society did you think you were building and is it is it what exists now

or is it was it something else no it was totally something else first of all I believe that we can maintain a very

liberal and human occupation we really believe that you

can have it all to have an occupation and still to feel very good about ourselves being liberal because I was a

so-call leftist also then but you know a Zionist leftist and being Zionist

doesn't go with being leftist for sure not today but then I didn't understand it so

there was the illusion that we can maintain a liberal occupation in which everyone will be

happy the Palestinian and the Jews and then I was brainwashed that we

are the best in everything we have the best Army and the best Agriculture and

we are the Lighthouse of the world the chosen people those are all things that

you get into your veins that the whole world is just admiring Israel and there

were years in which it was true and I even didn't ask myself walking in

t Aviv or elsewhere when I saw all the ruins along the roads I never asked

myself to whom are those ruins belonging to and where are the owners of those

ruins what happened to them I just heard we were told that it was the there were

there were some Palestinians living here and they were inside Ed by the leaders

to run away in 48 one big lie exactly like the lie that the people is a land

arrive to a land without the people the biggest lie of zis I believed in all

this and I believe that Zionism is is a

is a Liberation movement which should be supported by

the entire world and obviously the holoc course played also a

very big role then don't forget I was brought up few

years sorry after the Holocaust Israel was full with Holocaust Survivors there

our teachers were Holocaust Survivors our parents our environment our neighbors it was all about

it and then people really had this fear that the Holocaust might come back and

this notion that after the Holocaust we have the right to do whatever we want so this was the the the mindset the side

Guist so so you in 82 you you you then joined I think briefly you joined the

army and worked in the radio corpse of the army and then you joined our right is that firstly just clarify if that's

correct and secondly did did you leaving the Army radio cors and going to aret did it have anything to do with the

Lebanese war was that just you a journalist and you needed to now work for an outlet like what was how did you end up working for

aret no the timeline is a little different friend first I was in the Army radio station then I worked with Shimon

Perez and then I came to Har nothing to do with the Lebanese war and I don't

remember myself being very troubled by the Lebanese War I was still stuck in the

old beliefs and so when what kind of made you venture out as a young

journalist into the occupied territories into the West Bank and and maybe anecdotally just give us some of the anecdotes and stories you came across

which kind of opened your eyes uh people you may have met things you may have covered was it gradual um just kind of

give us a sense of that Journey it was so gradual and it it is still gradual until this very moment it

is still a process I still change I still open

up it started with a very innocent phone

call of a friend who was then Member of Parliament of a leftist zist part small

one Merit who told me let's go to the West Bank I heard that there were some olive

trees being uprooted by settlers let's go and see it

and we went and I made a story about it and I guess few weeks later I went again

back to the West Bank While most of the Israelis never been there and it was another story of

some kind of a CH the second story I don't remember but the first one I remember very well and

then gradually I realized two things that first of all there's no one to tell the story and almost no one and secondly

that that's the story that defines Israel much more than anything else the occupation defines Israel not the Kim

and not the achievements and not the scientific achievements and the Hightech

and all those things that should be really a source of Pride I don't say no

but finally what defines us is the occupation and the occupation is not

being told to the Israelis you mentioned that the process was is ongoing and and was all ongoing um so just I mean just

to kind of capture what that process must be like so when the first intifa broke out in 1987 where were you in your

process then what did you make of the intifa um did you did you see the justification on the Palestinian side

for the intifa did you think it was Reckless violence while you had some sympathy for the Palestinians what just

what did you make of the intifa when you were back then not yet I was still I mean 87 it

starts in the end of 87 I didn't start yet my journey to the

occupation it started in 88 okay so it was the antifa that kind of spurred that that journey to some extent

exactly but the beginning was you know yeah they have some case but they

do terrible things and um I I I didn't feel that my heart is

with them not yet this came much later but the

beginning is really as I say hesitating and I know how it developed

it took years and even decades until I reached the point in

How covering the Intifada changed Gideon

which I separated myself from Zionism I even separated myself from the

two-state solution this happened many many years

later what what was what was the moment for you when you you said when your heart changed when your heart was with

them what what was that moment when your heart changed and I mean if you can remember it you maybe maybe you remember

it very vividly or maybe it was gradual but is there a moment that you remember this is my heart now is with you know

the victims in this in this big scheme with those who are occupied and not with the

ire I remember once and I don't remember where

standing with Palestinian

protesters and in front of us were the armed soldiers who shot gas and then

also life ammunition and all of now the soldiers

are the sons of my friends the friends of my Sons there are few Mets in front

of me they speak my language they are my people My Religion

everything but I remember this moment in which I felt that no my heart is with the people I stand now together with

those people against those people this was a moment which was very

uh meaningful for me there were others but this was the most meaningful moment

in which I stood with the Palestinian protest against the military of Israel

do you remember do do you remember sort of a year when when what year this was plus minus No it should be the late 80s

okay so it's very soon after you you start writing stories about about olive trees and then I guess the process is

still ongoing but it's more more nuanced and refined then um and then just let me

interrupt you then came the happy years of Oslo in the '90s

in which I was on the 7 seven because I was sure that we are going for

peace I had really this illusion and there were so many signs that we going for peace and Arafat came and the PA and

so those years I was very very happy that it's it's coming to its

end and it was obviously for me much easier but and again I was caught by the

Trap like many others that Oslo leads us to peace I was very much in favor I was

really in E Foria there were all those peace conferences with Palestinians all

all over Europe I went with with Maran baruti and others to Europe

together to celebrate the peace it was very clear that that's it it's over and

then came the big uh disolution what I mean what in your view

is what what blew up Oslo I mean many I've had this conversation many times

and and usually it's Arafat made a mistake uh he he he sort of underestimated uh the Zionist Ambitions

to continue with settlements he was kind of Hoodwinked he was fooled um and then obviously Netanyahu came to power in '

96 itak Rin was assassinated I mean is do you is that is that the essence of what went wrong or do you think it's

much more nuanced than that first of all the real trap was really

ignoring the settlements which is the core issue and the main

obstacle and nobody realized it then including all the

Palestinians the fact that Israel was not ready even to freeze the settlement project even not to

freeze showed its real intentions because if you have a real gender

intention to enable a Palestinian State you don't build another Terrace in the in the

settlements okay you don't want to dismantle them yet okay but you don't need build more ever since

Oslo in the 20 years later we tripled the number of

settlements tripled and then much more than tripled so this was one

thing and the other thing was that

finally no one really looked upon the Palestinians as equals not Rabin and Perez at Arafat in

person all those expression of how disgusted they were by him and how hard

it was for them to shake his hands he shouldn't shake their hands they had

much more blood on their hands Palestinian blood than he had on of Jewish blood but all those things didn't

cross my mind then I just saw a state being created which will live in peace

with Israel and will be equal in its rights with Israel what went wrong was the lack of

understanding that they deserve at least what the Jews deserve

in this P of the world there was no one that I know in Israeli government

who really perceived them as equal human beings so you're saying every success of Israeli regime irrespective of who was

in power was just always trying to disrupt Oslo um absolutely and I'll tell

Every Israeli government tried to undermine Oslo

you more than this the fact that rabine was assassinated in my view was a

terrible tragedy obviously and I liked Rabin and I had some personal relations

with him and I was shocked like anyone else but he historically it didn't change much okay so there's there's two

things now I want to speak about which is kind of your I mean we've talked about your journey but obviously that

Journey has aspects of isolationism right because you as you getting more sympathetic to to the Palestinian cause

as you seeing firsthand discovering what kind of conditions they're living in um

obviously not everyone around you is going through their process some are becoming even more more right some are

maybe becoming slightly sympathetic but then there's the general public but there's also peers and and journalists

right so firstly what was it like as you changing just dealing with the general public with family with extended family

and then also dealing with journalists um I I mean obviously journalists also have a wide spectrum there's people who

write for very far right right sort of Publications but haret has generally been you know left and liberal um what

was that Journey like both with journalists and with the general public it went through many ups and

downs and I I can tell you that the last 17 months namely ever since the 7th of

October are the hardest ones ever I was never so lonely like

now my best friends or almost all of them not all of them but most of them

left me or left our ideas you don't know how deep it is the

shift in Israeli Peace camp in those months because also that the victims of

7th of October were mainly from the peace camp this is very

meaningful would it be settler I guess it would be different but it was really

the core of the Israeli Peace Camp which was attacked on the 7th of

October but throughout the years yeah there were ups and downs I had

bodyguards in [Music] 2014 I ER

celebrated in the Oslo years which were very happy years and then being a

supporter of the Palestinian was very fashionable and and going abroad to all

those conferences together with the Palestinians was

wonderful and then really those were very sweet years the others were harder

but always I had ARS as a as a rescue place as a place who always

supported me and this must be said without har I couldn't do it no way in

no other media Outlet I could do what I've done if not har the publisher

mainly the publisher who always supported me the atmosphere to me was

not always very supportive in ARS either there were many who

who criticized me who don't like my even presence there one of the owners of

har it's a Russian oligarch who owns 25%

even wrote a letter to our publisher in the beginning of this war now calling to

fire me and Amir AAS so even hars was always something that I had to struggle

but the atmosphere was always very supportive and very friendly and loving

and and I I can only be grateful for har and for the platform which is a very

important platform because it is published in both languages English and Hebrew the only Outlet which is in both

languages simultaneously and this was my opening to the world without the English

version I don't know what would have been because in Hebrew really my readers are getting less and less

um you you've you've mentioned haret and and 2014 you had to you had to use bodyguards this was mainly for your

coverage of Israel's war on Gaza back then um I'm assuming uh it's also said

that hites then lost lots of lost millions of of of of of of dollars in advertising Revenue also uh the the sort

of the the Target because of you um and you did mention the publisher has been supportive of you how has why has haret

put up with you look it's a first of all it is part

of the DNA in of haret even though haret defines itself as a Zionist newspaper until today and

so does the publisher insist on this while I don't consider myself as a zist

anymore but that's part of the DNA and I guess it is really thanks mainly to the

publisher who thinks that documenting the occupation is really a very important

job and he he he's very proud that his newspaper is the only Outlet almost only

Outlet which covers the occupation as it does and yeah it's also the combination

of people who work in ours who most of them not all of them but most of them are real

liberals and somehow I made my way so hards and as I said there were better

years and worse years for many years I was very wanted on Israeli TV and other

outlets I even participate in some reality shows I mean I can't complain

that I was always excluded but in the last one and a half year I'm totally excluded you mentioned earlier and you

you mentioned right now that you've been excluded for the last one and a half years and that the last one and a half years it's really been difficult you've lost close friends has this been the

most hopeless you felt in terms of what the Israeli Society is what the Israeli state is where they heading just just in

terms of has is this is this rock bottom in terms of what what you've seen or has there been worse moments definitely

undoubtly it was never so bad because there was always a camp which stood

against or at least I thought there was a camp When I Look Backwards I start to

have my doubts how solid was this camp but there was a camp and now there is nothing there's only opposition to netan

there's only protest calling to releasee the hostages and nothing but this you know

for tomorrow I wrote there are 24 living hostages in Gaza and their

Haaretz

fate is really touching and Israel should do any possible effort to release

them but I cannot ignore 2.3 million Palestinians living in Gaza part of them

in worse conditions or not in better conditions for sure and I cannot say that it's all about the

hostages while everyone around me is busy only with the hostages no with all

the respect there are some others living in Gaza in horrible conditions and the

terrible fear with terrible losses with with destruction with no homes with no

future with no present with no food with no medicines how can we all this uh how has

harits changed in in the last in the last sort of 18 months and I mean you don't have to name name people Etc but

are there are there young Gideon levies and Amir hassas coming through I mean obviously the atrocities of the last 18

months which harit does cover U unlike most Israeli media surely is

built up because of October 7th but how is hit itself changed and do you think the future of the paper uh is going to

kind of maintain what it has maintained how do you see it changing I don't think har

changed and I'm very happy about it har didn't change it kept still its leest

side but I think hars played a very important role in this war being the

only Outlet which tells Israelis what's going on in Gaza

and in the West Bank and I don't feel a change within our there's a personal

change some of my friends changed their views but it didn't make a big

difference in terms of my freedom which was kept totally also in this war

totally and I can only be grateful for this and not take it for granted that it

will be forever and I think har will continue to keep its

DNA if the publisher will stay as long as we we can

and if his replacement he's 80 already and there is always a fear that the new

guys whoever will it be will change the DNA of hars this will be a catastroph

catastrophical event not only for me as a writer but also for me as a reader and for me as an Israeli because I truly

believe that Israel will be a much worse place without harit we've already touched upon and you

said you weren't surprised by the the world reaction to to the genocide in Gaza and what's occurred um but you also

did mention that it seems like societies and Global Society are now treating Israel like a parai but governments are

not specifically here governments in Europe and very much so the government in the USA what do you think is at the

essence of of of us and Western support for Israel is it Supremacy is it the Israel Lobby is it you know interest in

the Middle East when you look at this from as as a journalist inside of Israel close to the Israeli Society what do you

think is the essence of the support that they have for for Israel and why they they do so much to kind of I mean they

smear their own names so badly to protect Israel why do they do this so it's a combination of things and

after we will mention all the factors I will still tell you that there is

something missing which I don't which I can't explain if the president of the United States not the current one the

former one Joe Biden who supplied Israel with so many weapons with so much political

diplomatic and economical Aid more than any country in the world if he asked the prime minister of

Israel not to penetrate into

Rafa and the prime minister of Israel just ignores him and there are no consequences after

it nothing the arms continue to flow the money the Vos in the security Council

everything continues as if nothing none of my explanation will be good enough to explain a situation which

such a superpower like the United States can really

swallow such and it's it's just one example there are so many others in which Israel just ignored the United

States so in Europe it's a lot of guilt feelings obviously which are

manipulated by Israel for its own interests in a very cynical way labeling

any criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism and it's very efficient

Europe right now is paralyzed at least the establishment everyone is so scared

to be labeled as a as a [Music] anti-semite when when a Jew is being

scratched somewhere you see all the leadership running there the same time there might

be other minorities who suffer for more

you will not hear a word but okay the past is still the shade of the past is

still over Europe and maybe rightly so in the United States it's really the

Jewish Lobby obviously which is very very powerful as we all know and and it's not only powerful it's

also very sophisticated they know their way to

manipulate to to really squeeze politicians in all

kind of ways in any case as I said it's a combination of many things yes it is

also like South Africa was the White

Outpost against the Communist and the blacks in Africa apart South Africa

Israel is portrayed as so-call the only democracy in the Middle

East um they always speak about shared values with

Israel which make me wonder so many times because Israel is maintaining on

one of the most brutal and cruel regimes in the world

one of the most brutal tyrannies in the world namely the military occupation of the West Bank in

Gaza how can this country be labeled as a democracy and being such a darling of

the West sharing values with Israel but yeah not everything is still

clear to me because having said all this Europe and the United States could

continue to put all this Aid and all those efforts to guarantee Israel but if

they would be more serious they could have do it in a more conditioning way

and they don't do it and and you're saying it's a mystery as to why they don't do that there is one one part

which is missing yeah it's not total mystery because as I say there are the guilt

feelings but still it doesn't explain the intensity of it um it's

difficult obviously to cast judgment on the people that your government is occupying on the Palestinians but just

in which way have Palestinian leaders both on the fat side and on the H Hamas side in which way have they failed

Has Palestinian leadership failed

Palestinians in terms of of you know somehow having the path to Palestinian

Liberation uh slightly better because I mean it's never been been optimistic it's never really been great but just

materially not in terms of aspirations and passion and public opinion but just materially it always seems to be getting

worse um is that is that a fault of Palestinian leadership in your opinion or or not I mean what's your take on

that I'm usually accused that they never blame them for anything and people even

say that that's racism because I think that they cannot

take responsibility for anything but the truth is that I think

they tried everything and they had no chance they are by far too

weak and and and they are fighting against huge huge

powers and they are too too too weak yes if they had a better

leadership for sure now but I saw that yasat was a real

leader he made some mistakes and Oso was one of

them but finally he United the Palestinian people the big failur came

after him when H there was no leadership there

was a vacuum and I don't think I can blame the

Palestinian much because they really tried everything okay so the armed

struggle didn't bring them any achievements okay but the Diplomatic

struggle didn't bring them any achievement either so they tried here and they tried

there and nothing succeeded and finally they are by the end of the day to weak too

isolated also the division that Israel created by all means Israel created this

horrible division between Israeli Palestinians and Palestinians of of of the occupied

territories between Jerusalem and the West Bank between Gaza and the West Bank between the diaspora outside and

diaspora inside endless divisions which also made it much weaker

obviously I'm sure they carry some responsibilities but once you start to

speak about it you create a symmetria both parts parties carry the same

responsibility no Israel carries the main responsibility for the reality

today what do you think realistically it would would be the biggest driver for Palestinian Freedom

aspirational Palestinian Freedom does it depend on Dynamics in Israeli Society is it internal sort of leadership of the

Palestinians is it the region shifting maybe Arab countries being more representative in free a global shift in

power towards China like what what do you think is the most reasonable path towards a Palestinian dignity and

equality and freedom unfortunately very depends on them

obviously phenomenas like Hamas and Jihad do not help

to improve their image in the world but I'm sure that would they have another

leadership a more moderate one it wouldn't help much it wouldn't change much by the end of the game I'm a great

believer of putting pressure on Israel not on the Palestinians making Israel pay making Israelis pay

making Israelis accountable for what is being happening and believing

that then and only then Israelis will start to ask themselves all kind of

What's the path to Palestinian liberationSupport stories that matter. Join this channel to get access to perks

questions until then when Israel can continue being quite a good place you

know now we are in war and things are not so good but life in Israel is very

good and as long as life in Israel is so good why would Israelis bother to go for any

change so I'm still a believer of of pressure I don't see pressure over

Israel obviously I don't see any other way to change things because Israelis

will not wake up one shining morning and say oh this occupation is so ugly let's put an end to it never this will never

happen it will only happen when there will be no other the choice and to

create this you need to put pressure over Israel uh when we look at history uh uh

the Crusaders were also occupiers um they they they had a very you know confrontational relationship with the

inhabitants of the local inhabitants of of Palestine um they faced lots of

resistance and eventually you know they were made to leave uh they were they

they were given the option but they left they they left the land do you see Israel you see to do you see this sort

of a similar situation with that do you think it's fundamentally different we do live 900 years you know into the future

since then um so this is a very different world we're living in but Israel seems what you're saying also

seems that there's going to be a consistently an you know sort of antagonistic relationship with with the

Palestinians with the region um what do you think the Fate will be EV in in the

long Arc of History I don't think be a similar Fai

to the crucid because in the last 70 80 years there

was a Israeli people created here a real people with a lot of common

ground not only religion it's culture it's language it's it's it's it's

everything it's a real people I mean Israel Israelis are a people today I

don't know if being Jewish is belonging to a religion or to a people

but being Israeli is belonging to Israel and it's quite deep rooted and I don't

see this project being dismantled as I said before the question

is how will it look but it is here to stay and I don't see anyone removing Israel from here

what is what is your hope for your grandchildren uh what kind of Israel and Palestine do do you hope that they will

live in when they are uh fully grown adults and old men like

yourself most Israelis will tell you my hope for a grand children is that they will

leave you will hear it for sure in in my

circles many of them will tell you listen there's no future here it's not that it will not exist but it will be an

unbearable place not only because of the palestin because of the ultra

Orthodox because of all the clashes between so many segments of the Israeli

Society because of the aggression in daily life within

Israel so many will tell you they wish

this look my dream is a a one democracy

between the river and the Sea obviously with equal rights to

everyone right now it sounds very f fetched and without any chances but I

don't know any other Vision so if I have the luxury of

dreaming my dream is that my grandchildren will live in a democracy

between the river and the Sea uh Gan leevy thank you so much for your time it's been it's been a real

pleasure speaking with you uh is there anything else you want to you want to say something I may not have asked you

which you think is relevant um I don't think that there is anything you didn't ask in 1 hour and 10

minutes and and I want just to thank you for the very very interesting and

challenging conversation we had thank you so much thank you so much gide leevy and and and we will be in touch thank

you for your time and uh best of luck with everything all the best bye-bye

bye-bye thank you so much

===

===

225 Comments

Sejin Lifeforce 生命

Add a comment...

@lesleybetts4874

2 months ago

Gideon Levy will be remembered for standing on the right side of history.

A true journalist and humanitarian.

@donaldcameron7057

2 months ago

the conscience of Israel speaks, a voice from the darkness, what a good man Gideon is

1 reply

@H_Dar792

2 months ago

Thank you Gideon Levy... you're a Righteous Jew Among the Nations, one of hundreds of thousands. Keep up the excellent work to help stop the violent dehumanization of an entire society.

@Randy-r1y

2 months ago

You are a shining light in this dark hour Gideon Levy

110

1 reply

@alicerose9140

2 months ago

"Telling the truth will not get you many friends, but it will make you good ones" -JohnLennon. You are a real one Gideon, holding your head up in a mass of willfully blind liars ❤

@ESO529-w5i

2 months ago (edited)

My highest respect for Gideon Levy - I listen to him and read his articles since many years and kind of followed his transformation. Although he is not a "practicing" Jew, he has incorporated the following known statement: "To be a Jew is to stand with the oppressed, NEVER the oppressors" - Marek Edelman, leader of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

@chris33337

2 months ago

The Brilliant Gideon Levy - the face of True INTEGRITY, courage and humanity! Kudos to him from Europe! 💜

2 replies

@cdfHerze

2 months ago

Gideon Levy is a wonderful human being and a magnificent journalist committed to the truth.❤

@eleanorrae7378

2 months ago (edited)

I wake up every day and still cannot believe this is still happening. One wishes haunting was possible, because I feel this is beyond redemption now.

@omniversling

2 months ago (edited)

Do not feel alone Mr Levy, there are many many millions of us who appreciate you, your wisdom, experience, choices, and how you stand for justice.

1 reply

@sarahpengelly8439

2 months ago

There is an anti war protest but it is a very small. The other day, a small group took to the streets with drums & other instruments & were beaten by police. Very brave of them as they are a very tiny minority.

4 replies

@KAshelford

2 months ago

I can never get enough of Gideon Levy’s wisdom. May God protect him and keep him safe from those who hate the truth he tells.

@SA-km3oh

2 months ago

Massive respect to M. Gideon Levy 🙏

@emilymein

2 months ago

Gideon Levy is a wonderful human being.

@johnwalsh8997

2 months ago

Whatever you think about him, you just can't do without him. Gideon Levy, long may he run.

@ximenaclaure2524

2 months ago

Palestinians have right to this land more than Israeli.

Israeli is the occupying power.

@jensheahan7522

2 months ago

Gideon Levy you bring me a sliver of hope, thank you for being a decent human being and Thank you God for people like Gideon Levy

@SarahYounes-il9gk

2 months ago

Huge respect to Gideon!

@TheWatermelonClub

2 months ago

An Israeli that isn’t a monster. The world appreciates Mr. Levy for showing the truth when his privilege never required it.

1 reply

@sandrajensen497

2 months ago

The best in-depth interview of Gideon Levy I have seen, by far! Top-notch.

@Shadows0102

2 months ago

Wow the story of Gedeon Levy as a young man.....unbelievable....God Bless you

@naelaismail3052

2 months ago

Good to see Gideon Levy in an interview. I haven’t seen him for sometime 🙌

@ronaldadair6121

2 months ago

Among the best conversations I have listened over the last seventeen months. Thank you MME and the courageous and moral Gideon Levy.

@Shadows0102

2 months ago

Thank you so much Gedeon Levy for your story it make me calm down a little bit......but I still crying.....

@naelaismail3052

2 months ago

A wonderful and moving interview with Gideon Levy.

@H_Dar792

2 months ago

Today, Gideon and several others like Daniel Levy are uncommon BUT...

“One day, when it’s safe, when there’s no personal downside to calling a thing what it is, when it’s too late to hold anyone accountable, everyone will have always been against this.”

- Omar El Akkad

@illusionistMunawarMuzaffar

1 month ago

The Brilliant Gideon Levy - the face of True INTEGRITY, courage and humanity! Kudos to him from Europe! 💜

You are a shining light in this dark hour Gideon Levy

@HM-px5ei

2 months ago

Anything this man says is so profound. I'm always in awe of him

@johnMCMANUS-pi1kd

2 months ago

You're a good man Gideon, bravo 👏

@Breese2382

2 months ago

Thank you Gideon Levy - you are a shining light in the darkness. Sending you love

@carolineportis3166

2 months ago

Wow! What a wonderful interview. I’m going to share this with my friends who are still in the dark and are reading Noa Tishby. Thank you!

@anngreenfield6016

2 months ago

Palestine Will Be Free❤

@BertteNader

2 months ago

Gaza will never die, Palestine will rise from the ashes and be an independent state

1 reply

@jackwinter1385

2 months ago

Thank you Mr. Gideon Levy. May your thougts about Israel and the Palestinians spread. You would earn the Nobel Peace Prize.

@JanePeryer-hp7ic

2 months ago

Brilliant, interesting as always. Thank you Gideon. You have been my favourite Israeli for a very long time. Very good interview. Free Palestine ✊🇵🇸

@moniquedelaney7958

2 months ago

Gideon Levi , thanking you for you humanity .

@huseyintekin795

2 months ago

God Bless You Live Long Your Voice is Millions of People's Voice Your True Human Being True Journelist World's needs more journelist like You Live Long 🙏 ❤️ 🙏🙏🙏

@zackhenry1151

2 months ago

A true journalist with heart and moral compass

@mariaangelicabrunellsolar7086

2 months ago

Guideon Levy is a real hero! He lives in Israel, and tells the truth!

@rhahwaz

2 months ago

He is A man of integrity 👏

@antoinehaddad8213

2 months ago

Thank you Mr levy Gideon we love you ❤🇱🇧

@wirlisSorensen

2 months ago

Levy‘s description of Israeal public media describes the situation in Germany and in the US also

@GehanAdel

2 months ago

Totally respect for you M.levy

@angieh8769

2 months ago

Mr.Levy God Bless you. Keep on speaking for Justice.

@muzaffarmohamed8354

2 months ago

My great respect to Mr Gideon Levy. Your reports and insights have been very factual history data.

@Peptalk1w34

2 months ago

Protect this man 🙏🏼

@شريفحمدي-ث6ق

2 months ago

what an honest man.

@behonest.12

2 months ago

Love Gideon Levy, king.

@stephenvincent2147

1 month ago

Gideon Levy is not only on the right side of history, he is helping to define what that means. A voice of reason in an age of treason.

@GoodByePorkPie-e7w

2 months ago

But how do you get more people to listen to someone like Gideon. People just don't care to even listen😢

1 reply

@isabellacolloredo2341

2 months ago

Thank you Gideon for your ouspeaking the truth..

@cao-sm3lj

2 months ago (edited)

thank you for asking these questions and answering so frankly. Empathy is always possible. Transformation is always possible. good interview. best wishes.

@JonasKamran

2 months ago

Gedeon levy My respect to you sir for staying strong for the right things ❤❤. I love your humanity integrity honesty and unbias speech.

@Shadows0102

2 months ago

Isolation....its better to be alone then to be surrounded by bloodthirsty so called people....

@decolonised1

2 months ago

Gaza and the Palestinians will never be forgotten and all the Arabs, all the Muslims and all the people of conscience in the world will rise against the evil racism and injustice. Like the South African afrikaans the world will choose to end Zionism. Our thanks to the Jewish people who are speaking up against the Zio evils like Mr Levy 🙏🏼

@tonyafrancesca8409

2 months ago

Amazing interview. Much respect to Gideon

@marie3430

2 months ago

Thank you mister Gedeon

@sarahpengelly8439

2 months ago

Gideon Levy - a very good man but probably a very lonely man now.

@Heart-Core

2 months ago

♥️Being a real (hu)man✊Humanity🕊️

@StevenAnthony-v2r

2 months ago

Levy, Finklestein, Pappe... all support the 1 state solution

===

2025-06-03

My life, covering Israeli war crimes for decades | Gideon Levy | UNAPOLO...

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