What’s Next in Trump’s War on Venezuela?
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Democracy Now! discusses the attack on Venezuela with two Venezuelan American scholars: Alejandro Velasco, an associate history professor at New York University, and Miguel Tinker Salas, emeritus professor of history at Pomona College. The professors react to President Trump’s comments on the presence of oil in the region and claims that Venezuela had “stolen” oil from U.S. companies. “There was no taking of 'American property or American oil' — it was Venezuelan oil,” says Tinker Salas. “It belonged to Venezuela.”
Velasco also comments on Marco Rubio, a central figure in the U.S. campaign against Venezuela, who may have another country as his ultimate target. “Rubio’s primary interest in the region is not Venezuela, it’s not Colombia, it’s not Mexico — it’s Cuba,” says Velasco.
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===
Transcript
This is democracyow democracynow.org the
Warren Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman
with Juan Gonzalez. As we talk more
about the US attack on Venezuela and the
abduction of Venezuelan President
Nicolas Maduro and his wife, they are
now, as we broadcast, being brought into
the federal courthouse in New York,
brought by helicopter from Brooklyn
where they have been placed in the
Metropolitan Detention Center. We want
to go back to President Trump speaking
about Venezuela's oil on Saturday, hours
after the US attack.
===
In addition, Venezuela
unilaterally seized and sold American
oil, American assets, and American
platforms costing us billions and
billions of dollars.
They did this a while ago, but we never
had a president that did anything about
it. They took all of our property. was
our property. We built it and uh we
never had a president that decided to do
anything about it. Instead, they fought
wars that were 10,000 miles away. We
built Venezuela oil industry with
American talent, drive, and skill, and
the socialist regime stole it from us
during those previous
administrations. And they stole it
through force. This constituted one of
the largest thefts of American property
in the history of our country.
Considered the largest theft of property
in the history of our country. Massive
oil infrastructure was taken like we
were babies and we didn't do anything
about it. I would have done something
about it.
===
That's President Trump talking about the
theft of Venezuelan oil, talking about
it as our oil. We're joined by two
guests in our New York studio. Alejandro
Velasco, associate professor at New York
University, where he's historian of
modern Latin America, former executive
editor of Naka Report on the Americas,
author of the book Barrio Rising: Urban
Popular Politics and the Making of
Modern Venezuela. He was born and raised
in Venezuela. And Mikuel Tinker Sales is
with us, Emmeritus professor of history
at Pomona College in Claremont,
California, author of The Enduring
Legacy: Oil Culture and Society in
Venezuela and the book Venezuela: What
Everyone Needs to Know.
Welcome back both of you to Democracy
Now. Professor Miguel Tinker Solales,
uh, oil is what you've been covering in
Venezuela for decades. talk about
Trump's comments that it's Venezuela's
oil that will fund the US running
Venezuela.
Well, we heard this with Bush in the
Iraq invasion that the oil from Iraq
would was going to finance the
intervention uh and the long-term
rebuilding. The reality is that that
failed in Iraq and it will fail in
Venezuela. Uh Venezuela's oil industry
uh has taken a hit in the last 15 years.
Uh it is a semblance of what it used to
be. Uh, and the reality is I cannot
imagine any American oil company going
into Venezuela uh, spending billions of
dollars to build up an infrastructure
um, without American boots on the ground
or without very clear guarantees. And
even if they did, the process would take
close to a decade. Uh, so Trump is
talking the same way he always does. U,
it is an exaggeration. U, it is an
outright lie. Um, and I I believe it to
be simply another pretext, another
excuse to try to convince the American
public that what he did uh had any
value.
And Miguel Tigeras, I wanted to ask you
again something that we discussed on
Saturday in our special uh report on the
Venezuela invasion. this whole notion of
Trump uh the the lie that he keeps uh uh
foisting on the American public that it
was the socialist government of
Venezuela that took this oil when in
reality the nationalization
of uh Venezuela's oil industry occurred
long before anyone had heard of Ugo
Chavez and and the Bolivarian
revolution. Could you talk about that
history as well?
Sure. Venezuela was Venezuelans were
always keen on gaining control over its
own oil industry. Without a doubt,
American and Europeans were present at
the beginning of the oil industry, but
the actual work was done by Venezuelans.
The actual establishment of the industry
was done by Venezuelans. Um, and there
was always an aspiration that that oil
industry would belong to the country and
the country could benefit from that more
than simply providing concessions to
foreign oil companies. Uh so the
nationalization was happened in 1975.
It was a fully compensated
nationalization taking effect on January
1st 1976 and it was done under the
government of Carlos Andres Perez a
social democratic government not Ugo
Chaveis. Chavez did do uh close the door
uh to openings that were there for
American foreign companies uh in article
five of the of the reform. Uh, and in
2007 there was a clash with Exxon Mobile
and Kico Phillips over oil deposits in
the Ordinoco basin. Um, and Chevron, I'm
sorry, Exxon demanded 606 billion. A
court decided that they only owed $1.6
billion. So you can see from the very
beginning that the process of
nationalization had been compensated uh
and negotiated. So there was no taking
of quote unquote American property or
American oil. It was Venezuelan oil. It
belonged to Venezuela and it was the
purview of the Venezuelan government to
decide who or what uh operated those oil
fields.
And Miguel, I also wanted to ask you
about other resources that have not been
mentioned, but that clearly American
capitalists are salivating over the
prospects of of getting access to. Uh,
one is Colan, a a uh a rare metal that
is in most uh uh laptop computers and
phones and is has uses for the military
as well as diamonds and gold. You talk
about the the immense resources that
Venezuela has in uh in these other
areas. Oil is only on the surface. The
reality is, as you point out, Venezuela
is rich in gold. It's rich in rare
earths, rare minerals. It is rich in
gas. one of the high largest deposits of
gas in the world. Uh it is rich in
lithium. Uh it has potential for
tremendous lithium. It has coal. It has
other minerals as well. So that the the
the position the positioning of the US
as a as a uh investor in Venezuela or as
a corporate interest in Venezuela is
massive. is it involves not only the
country's strategic position and is the
interface between the Caribbean and
South America, but it involves the
possession of tremendous mineral
deposits uh and oil deposits. It reminds
me of of what the American general in
charge of the Caribbean during World War
II said, uh, "If of all the countries of
Latin America, I only want one ally,
that is Venezuela, because they're
beautifully rich in oil and minerals."
That has been the position of the US
government since 1940 until the present.
I'd also like to bring in a professor uh
NYU professor Alejandro Velasco into the
conversation. Uh professor Velasco
on Saturday evening you posted on social
media that it seemed as if quote Maduro
was given up by the remaining government
apparatus in a back channel deal. Uh do
you still think that and what would that
mean? And is it your is do you believe
that Deli Rodriguez who is now the in
the will be now sworn in as interim
president was herself complicit in this
operation?
Obviously it's somewhat speculative but
but clues point in some kind of
direction that suggests that that might
be the case. We we one of the things
that we do know is that months leading
up to of course the um the uh the
abduction of of Nicolas Maduro Maduro
and people like Desi Rodriguez, Jorge
Rodriguez um and others.
Explain Jorge Rodriguez, her brother.
Yeah, Jorge Rodriguez is Deli's brother.
Um you both of them have
He's head of the National Assembly.
He is head of the National Assembly, but
has held many posts under Chavez's
government and then under Maduro's
government for for years. Um you both of
them have a long story tradition of
leftist politics in Latin America in
Venezuela in particular. Their father
was a Marxist gerilla um who was
assassinated under the government um in
in the 1970s in were closely allied with
the United States. Um and they've really
cemented a position um in government as
being right-hand people to Maludo uh for
sure Chavez before him. But what we had
seen in the months leading up to the
abduction was that Maludo and and and
these uh inner circle uh members had
been negotiating with the Trump
administration things like oil deals,
things like um you know other kinds of
investment from the United States, but
the missing piece there seemed to be
whether Maluda would remain in power. Um
and you given how quickly the operation
unfolded on Saturday and how quickly it
seems that um Deli Rodriguez has been
able to you know um consolidate power
over the um the intervening 48 hours,
you have to assume that there was some
kind of collusion or at least some kind
of conversation happening between the
parties beforehand. Maduro in exchange
for um for remaining in power. Maduro in
exchange for stability. Maludo in
exchange for you know some kind of you
know open dealing with the United
States. Now of course the challenge for
Dia and others is can they straddle this
line between you know doing in some ways
Trump's bidding and then at the same
time maintaining as Andrea Chavez was
saying earlier a position of sovereignty
and mutual respect of rel bilateral
relations between Venezuela and the
United States. I don't know if they'll
be able to do it.
And where
and Alejandra,
go ahead.
Alejandra, I wanted I wanted to ask you
also in uh in in terms of the ability of
Venezuela to maneuver through this
situation right now. You have also
raised the issue that that that Cuba is
also in the uh uh in the focus of the
United States in terms of what it's
doing in Venezuela. Could you talk about
that as well?
I have long maintained and and and this
isn't secret to anyone that Marco
Rubio's primary interest in the region
is not Venezuela, it's not Colombia,
it's not Mexico, it's Cuba. As a
CubanAmerican and you know long
strididently, you know, an opponent of
the Castro government and of course now
the current government in in in Cuba,
he's made no secret of his desire to
oust the government in Cuba. The problem
of course for him is that Cuba has no
resources that Trump would be interested
in. And so he would have to sell Trump
only on the basis of ideology. We have
to, you know, kill a leftist government.
And he now sees an opening with
Venezuela. He's now able to say, "Look,
if we can deliver resources from
Venezuela through a low-level, deadly of
course, but low-level engagement, we can
do something similar in Cuba and at the
same time deliver not just Cuba and
Venezuela, but the rest of the
hemisphere to a Trumpist vision of the
world." You that is my sense of what is
um you know, largely at stake here. So
you have Marco Rubio hours after the
bombing of Venezuela and the abduction
of President Maduro and his wife
speaking in the news conference with
Trump uh saying basically Cuba better
watch out. And then on Sunday you have
President Trump speaking on Air Force
One.
Cuba is ready to fall. You know
Cuba looks like it's ready to fall. I
don't know how they if they're going to
hold out,
but Cuba now has no income. They got all
of their income from Venezuela, from the
Venezuelan oil. They're not getting any
of it.
And Cuba literally is ready to fall. And
you have a lot of great Cubanameans that
are going to be very happy about this.
And then you have President Trump also
threatening the Colombian president,
Gustavo Petro.
Colombia is very sick, too. run by a
sick man who likes making cocaine and
selling it to the United States. And
he's not going to be doing it very long,
let me tell you.
What does that mean? He's not going to
be doing it very long.
He's not doing it very long. He has a
cocaine mills and cocaine factories.
He's not going to be doing it very long.
So, there will be an operation by the US
and
it sounds good to me. So, in a lengthy
series of lengthy posts on uh X, I think
it was like 700 words, Colombian
President Pro blasted Trump, saying,
quote, "Stop slandering me, Mr. Trump."
Pro called on Latin America to unite
against the US, saying the region risk
being quote treated as a servant and
slave. So, go from Cuba to Colombia and
what this means. Well, certainly in the
case of Cuba, what um President Trump
said is is accurate in so far as most of
the revenue that Cuba had been getting
over the past 5, 10, 15 years was coming
through thevention of Venezuelan oil.
And of course, if they closed that small
spigot that had been a lifeline of Cuba,
then Cuba's position is incrementally
worse um and you might end up seeing
protests that we've seen um you know,
prior years and as a result then, you
know, a kind of pretext for
intervention. But then if you link that
in what Cuba represents to Latin
America, which is a kind of paragon of a
different alternative for Latin America
as a region, a leftist alternative with
all of its faults that we can of course
talk about at length. um losing that for
the region would then open up the door
for other countries and other right-wing
countries in Latin America or right-wing
movements in Latin America to say now we
have a white house in power and no Cuba
in present in in in in the region or
leftist government in re in in the
region to be able to do what we want and
so to me this is far far larger an
ideological project and battle um that's
being waged with uh Venezuela as a kind
of instrumental piece
Yeah, I'd like to bring uh Miguel Tinker
Salados back into the conversation and
this whole issue of uh Trump uh focusing
not just on Venezuela but also on Cuba,
Colombia and how Latin America uh you
expect will respond because clearly this
is not the same Latin America as I said
repeatedly uh that that existed 50 years
ago or 60 years ago. there's many more
popular movements uh stronger
progressive leaders in several
countries. What's your sense of how the
region is going to respond in the coming
weeks and months?
Well, I think there's a difference
between how political leaders may
respond because obviously someone like
Malay or Naboa or Boule will respond in
support of Trump. Uh it's another thing
how the population of Latin America will
respond and I think that's the big
difference here because as you point out
uh there has been a tremendous level of
mobilization of social consciousness uh
that has occurred but there's also been
the weight of the crisis um that has
affected many countries in Latin America
and left mistakes that have been made in
many cases in many countries uh in their
inability to deliver. But I think we're
also overestimating US empire because
what we saw in Venezuela uh on on
Saturday thei was the spectacle of
empire. Um it was the the the the
promotion of empire um while not
actually landing troops on the ground.
Um they were unable to do that because
they know that they that would bog them
down in a long-term war um and taking on
Cuba at the same time and taking on Iran
at the same time and taking on bombings
Nigeria at the same time. uh and
potentially conflicts in in Ukraine, in
in Asia, in Taiwan, etc. I think we
should not overestimate the role of US
empire. I think the military in the US
would push back to any kind of operation
in other countries u because that would
be a long-term commitment because taking
Cuba means implying the same old uh
Colin Powell doctrine, the pottery bond
doctrine that was if you break it, you
own it. So, if the US expects to have
run Venezuela, they're also going to
have to run Cuba and they're also going
to have to run Colombia and they're also
going to expect I doubt that the US
military is prepared for that kind of
long-term engagement. That doesn't mean
that I don't believe that the US wants
to remake Latin America the same way
that the neocons wanted to remake the
Middle East. Um, the current
administration under Marco Rubio uh
really wants to remake Latin America.
They wanted to be the American pond.
They wanted to be the Caribbean that
they control. They wanted to go back to
Teddy Roosevelt and guns diplomacy and
big stick diplomacy uh and control the
region. But again, we shouldn't
overestimate the role of US empire. I
think we saw on Saturday was the
spectacle of empire.
I mean, completely agree with me and and
that last point that he made is is so
central. I think what we're seeing here
is is a return to this gunboat diplomacy
that um had been the hallmark of the
Teddy Roosevelt period in the early 19th
20th century. I want to ask you
Alejandro very quickly about
President Trump responding to a reporter
about the Venezuelan opposition leader
Nobel Prize laurate Maria Karina
Machado.
Oh, I think it would be very tough for
her to be the leader. She doesn't have
the support within or the respect within
the country. She's a very nice woman,
but she doesn't have the respect. I
think many people were shocked that
President Trump threw Maria Karina
Machado under the bus. The woman who
basically dedicated her peace prize and
said that Trump should have gotten that
peace prize. Where does this leave her?
And also talk about the wife of um uh
exactly who um President Maduro's wife
Selia Flores is. She is a key political
figure herself
for sure. I mean, let's start with
Morina Machalo and we have 30 seconds.
No one could have been more surprised as
she was sidelined not just at the press
conference but then doubled down
yesterday. Marco Rubio also saying that
she's not ready, you know, to to stand
in. Um, I think what they what Machalo
overestimated was the degree to which um
Trump wanted democracy. He doesn't want
democracy. He just wants oil, right? And
so in that sense, you know, they it was
unsurprising that she would be sidelined
to anyone but her. Celia Flores 10
seconds.
Ciao Flores um you know long story
career under Chavez um was the head of
the National Assembly significant degree
of political power. We'll see what
emerges from this trial
and we're going to talk more about this
in these coming days. And also remember
that President Trump just uh pardoned uh
the convicted narot trafficker Honduran
President Juan Orlando Hernandez. I'm
Amy Goodman with Juan Gonzalez. Thanks
for joining us.
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