2017-12-13

Human rights in NK Wiki

North Korea Study Group
Ray Thompson shared a link.
9 hrs
Do reasonable folks consider Wiki to be up to date in this area?
Human rights in North Korea - Wikipedia
Human rights in North Korea are the principles that dictate the legal rights of citizens in North Korea. In North Korea, human rights are severely limited.[1] Despite numerous rights being de jure guaranteed by the country's constitution, in practice,…
EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG
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Vinicius Burakovas Of course not, this was written by gringos! This is propaganda. Read the "Human rights in the USA" article and think for a second 
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Arthur Hayward I would think the many videos of North Korean refugees giving their accounts of life in North Korea would be more accurate.
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Vinicius Burakovas Not even that. These "refugees" are usually criminals fleeing their penalty there, pretty much like westerners who flee their countries to escape paying taxes 
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Arthur Hayward Nonsense, you slander these poor people because you aren’t willing to accept what they are saying.
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Vinicius Burakovas No, dear, you are the one who doesn't want to accept facts, only what you see on the TV. The mashing majority of these people are criminals who were caught selling public property illegally and who are given "voice" in the west just to spread fake propaganda against the DPRK, that is, say only what you pigs want to hear. They are even WELL payed for that.
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Vinicius Burakovas Contrast the US article with this:

https://www.facebook.com/RevNews/videos/968583079961921/?hc_ref=ARTq0AC4xeFgiY6M8rFPz-eY3d95czIWLdKODZ8nX9VUfPHfBMrVu8fqw8v0nyvOtjU&fref=gs&dti=187281774624050&hc_location=groupManage
Revolution News
9 December at 02:00
TW: Police Execution
Daniel Shaver, a pest-control worker, was shot and killed by police officer Philip Brailsford in Mesa, Arizona while unarmed and crawling o...
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Charles Park Weaponized Human Rights.
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Ryan Pattinson Yeah, stopped reading at "North Korea".
You can't have an unbiased page of information about a country when you don't even refer to them by their real name. Won't be surprised to hear the word "regime" thrown around a few hundred times in the first paragraph.
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Mikkel Madsen East Germany and West Germany were broadly used, although they weren't the formal names.

As well as the name of this group.
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Nathaniel Downes Several Wikipedia editors have a well known anticommunist bias. I used to edit wiki pages awhile back, and even in articles which had little to nothing to do with communism, this clique of editors would find a way to sneak in something. As a result I would not rely on Wikipedia for any such material, because I know the lack of impartiality for the edits.
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Nathaniel Downes I remember one editor who constantly kept adding a claim that Stalin ordered the destruction of the N-1 moon rocket. The N-1 program was scrapped in 1972, 20 years after Staln died. For over a year I kept having to remove his changes to the article.
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Nathaniel Downes The last time I delt with Wikipedia politics was when this group decided on deleting a published authors page. I fought them for several weeks, pointing out that their arguments were invalid. (The claim was that he needed to be deleted due to not being a historian. The fact he was a professor of literature and published dozens of notable critiques and not a historian did not seem to matter to them)
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Charles Park Is there a way to improve wikipedia and are they doing anything in that regard?
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Nathaniel Downes No, it is the nature of the beast. The only way to eliminate such tampering or bias is to restrict edits, and once you do that it becomes a gatekeeper arrangement, and the bias becomes explicit (see Conservapedia)
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Charles Park How would you overcome those issues?
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Charles Park I use Wikipedia all the time to get quick facts. Of course, you use it at your own risk and you should approach anything on the web with skepticism. You have to do your own internal editing. But it's like that with the internet. Before the internet, yo...See more
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Nathaniel Downes I would offer up various editions, recognizing that bias can and will exist, allowing for counter arguments to be presented. I would also have a three editor review of edits before a page is updated, randomized.
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Charles Park Good suggestions.
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Ray Thompson It is fascinating for me to read contemporary comments by individuals who are completely delusional about what is happening in the real world. Thank you for sharing your fantasies. Meanwhile, IMHO, there are real threats facing humanity that I believe the detractors on this forum along with 99% of the world population are incapable of recognizing. My wish would be that those exercising their minds defending failed political systems would spend their time trying to save the systems worth saving.
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Charles Park This is a NK related site. If you wish to talk about climate change...
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Ray Thompson Charles Park NK And failed political systems are synonymous Charles. I am not talking about the weather! “The Juche ideology has been criticized by many scholars and observers as a mechanism for sustaining the totalitarian rule of the North Korean regime, and justifying the country's heavy-handed isolationism and oppression of the North Korean people. It has also been described as a form of Korean ethnic nationalism, but one which promotes the Kim family as the saviours of the "Korean Race" and acts as a foundation of the subsequent personality cult surrounding them.”
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Charles Park It's not like they developed all that in complete isolation.
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Ray Thompson Drawing by defector of treatment in NK.Manage
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Ray Thompson Charles Park What is your point Charles?
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Charles Park I am not saying torture does not exist in NK.
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Nathaniel Downes Have you ever read about prison abuses here in the US? It is horrifying, wherever it occurs. North Korea is not unique nor special in this regards.

Here, an investigation of one state, if you have the stomach for it. http://pubsys.miamiherald.com/.../2015/cruel-and-unusual/Manage
Cruel and Unusual: Deadly abuse in Florida's prisons
What began with an unlikely tip from an…
PUBSYS.MIAMIHERALD.COM
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Ray Thompson Charles Park Still don’t understand this comment Charles? “developed that in complete isolation”
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Ray Thompson Nathaniel Downes Yes Nathaniel I have. Can you tell me one very important difference?
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Charles Park Let's take what you said above. What is your definition of state failure? As far as I can see, NK exists. It has survived 65 years of warfare and survived the Korean War 1950-1953 which destroyed it and killed millions. Sure it fails to provide many kinds of freedoms taken for granted in certain other parts of the world and likely also continues to fail in feeding many of its citizens. But many, most nations face these failures. That does not make them complete failure. Nor should failure describe what NK is in entirety. What is more important to ask is, What is the best way to avoid imposing further harm through those failures? It's not the same things we have been doing all along for the past several decades. Etc.
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Nathaniel Downes One important difference - North Korea has one eighth the prison population per capita that the US does.
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David Bell Ray Thompson Were you there when this defector drew it and how long have you known the defector?... So posting a child like picture and saying that was from a NK defector totally reinforces your argument?.... I say it no such thing. As for repression,...See more
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Charles Park Of course juche is self serving. National ideologies are always self serving. They are articulated as in this case and often they are articulated in different ways. Most nations, including the US, have national ideologies which serve mainly those with the power in that country. But this is not unique to NK and this is not indicative of some failure.
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Charles Park Then ask yourself why they have juche without studying history, you wouldn't understand. Ironically, while juche is supposed to be focused inward, it is all a about being free from external hostility. So what do we do for the past 70 years? Do you think juche could have arisen if there was peace all along and Korea was not colonized by Japan?
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David Bell Ahhh Nathaniel Downesl... You miss the point... The USA has 'Prisons'... N Korea has 'Prison CAMPS'.... Which are basically prisons the same as any country has, but when you add the word 'CAMPS' it is supposed to invoke mental imagery of suffering akin to gulags and concentration camps... That is why they add the word.... Lol
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Charles Park Torture itself does not indicate failure of NK specifically because torture exists world wide. Definitely any kind of torture is bad and should be outlawed, but worse is the ongoing war which is used to justify political oppression and torture. To be sure torture also exists in democracies like the US.
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Ray Thompson Would love to continue but have pressing business. Thank you and I will return soon.
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Charles Park Try to read and understand the history and think critically. Propaganda is everywhere...
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Ray Thompson David Bell I may be unique in this group in that as a military aviator assigned to high risk missions, I completed Escape, Evasion and Survival Training. The course included capture and interrogation using techniques Allied servicemen were subjected to as WW II and Korean POW’S. The experience was a first hand window on the NK torture and brainwashing experience. It was also where I learned about the phenomenon of “Give up’itis” death syndrome that was perfected in NK POW environments. I have no delusions about North Korea and its oppressive sadistic regime.
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Nathaniel Downes Ray - oh? I may want to consult with you on my next book
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Ray Thompson Sure Nathaniel, glad to help.
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