Yuval Noah Harari: 'There is a battle for the soul of the Israeli nation' - YouTube
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Yuval Noah Harari: 'There is a battle for the soul of the Israeli nation'
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226,035 views Feb 27, 2024 #israelhamasconflict #gaza #yuvalnoahharari
Yuval Noah Harari has spoken to Sky News about his fears for the future of Israel.
The Sapiens author told Yalda Hakim he believes the biggest threat to his country comes not from Hamas, Hezbollah or Iran, but from the battle between Israelis for the "soul of the nation".
He said: "Personally, I fear most for really the soul of my country, of my nation in Israel at the moment.
"There is really a battle for the soul of the Israeli nation between patriotism on the one side and ideals of Jewish supremacy on the other side."
Read more here: https://news.sky.com/israel-hamas-war
#yuvalnoahharari #israelhamasconflict #gaza #zionism
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Transcript
Follow along using the transcript.
Show transcript
==
Transcript
0:00
yal your latest book is focused on
0:04
children it's a children's series that's
0:06
going to be coming out yeah Unstoppable
0:08
us just tell us why at this point you
0:10
felt it was so important to write for
0:13
children to
0:15
Children you know the basic idea is to
0:17
explain the world to Children especially
0:20
at at this crucial moment in history
0:23
when for the first time adults are not
0:26
really good guides for the future of of
0:30
these kids I mean we for the first time
0:33
we have no idea how the world would look
0:35
like when the children of today are
0:37
themselves grown-ups nobody knows what
0:40
the job market what the economy what
0:42
Society would look like in 10 or 20
0:44
years and to deal with the unknown
0:48
history is always an important key so um
0:52
you know it starts with your your most
0:55
basic em emotions like you're a kid you
0:57
wake up in the middle of the night
0:59
afraid that there is a monster under the
1:01
bed this is actually a historical memory
1:04
from hundreds of thousands of years ago
1:07
when there were indeed monsters that
1:10
came to eat children in the middle of
1:11
the night lions and cheetah and things
1:14
like that and if you woke up in fear and
1:17
called your mom you could be saved if
1:19
you kept sleeping you were eaten so to
1:23
even understand something as basic as as
1:25
that um it's helpful for children to
1:28
know our history
1:30
and certainly when it comes to the big
1:32
questions of politics and economics why
1:35
are there so many wars in the world um
1:39
so it's a historical question where do
1:41
Wars come from where do pandemics come
1:43
from for instance it it was very I think
1:47
insightful to know during the covid
1:50
pandemic that pandemics were not a
1:53
constant feature of human history they
1:56
began only with the Agricultural
1:59
Revolution hunter gatherers in the Stone
2:01
Age did not suffer from pandemics they
2:05
moved around in very small bands even if
2:07
somebody got sick and infected like five
2:10
other people you could not have a
2:11
pandemic it started with the
2:13
Agricultural Revolution when lots of
2:16
people and farm animals goats chickens
2:19
live together in crowded Villages which
2:23
people built these first Villages and
2:25
towns supposed to be like paradise for
2:27
humans it turned out this is Paradise
2:30
for
2:31
germs and it's it's the same with Wars
2:34
you know people sometimes think that war
2:36
is like part of human nature actually
2:39
the first clear evidence in the
2:41
archaeological record for Warfare
2:44
between people is only from about 13,000
2:48
years ago 13 13 13,000 years ago from
2:51
the Nile Valley we have no
2:53
archaeological evidence for Warfare
2:56
before that moment why do we keep doing
2:59
it then what Warfare yeah I mean if we
3:02
if it is a phenomenon as you say you
3:04
know history is a long time it's only
3:06
when you think about it as a historian
3:08
13,000 years ago for you is not that
3:10
long it's not that long no and yet we to
3:13
this day I mean if you look at the state
3:15
of the world it continues to happen and
3:18
it is a tool that people use first
3:20
before talking first before dialogue or
3:24
diplomacy um as the Stan I think the
3:27
most important thing to realize is a
3:29
human Choice Wars are never inevitable
3:34
among humans some people think that
3:37
humans fight for the same reason that
3:39
wolves and chimpanzees fight that we
3:42
fight over food and territory and this
3:45
is just part of the objective nature of
3:48
things and this is almost never the case
3:51
most wars in history are not really
3:54
about food or territory they they are
3:57
about the stories that we imagine in our
4:01
own minds and I look at the war between
4:04
Israelis and Palestinians for instance
4:06
there is objectively speaking there is
4:09
enough land between the Mediterranean
4:12
and the Jordan River to build houses and
4:14
schools and hospitals for everyone there
4:17
is enough food to feed everybody people
4:20
don't really fight about food they fight
4:24
about the imaginary stories in their
4:27
heads and they can't find a common story
4:31
and you know religion plays a very
4:32
important part in it like you have the
4:35
Holy Rock in Jerusalem Under the Dome of
4:37
the of the Rock and both Jews and
4:39
Muslims says God gave this holy Rock to
4:43
us you know Palestinian philosopher
4:45
sarin NBA wrote a few years ago that
4:48
Jews and Muslims armed with nuclear
4:51
weapons are about to wage one of the
4:54
biggest massacres of human beings ever
4:57
over a rock this is not an objective
5:01
necessity you don't really have to fight
5:04
over this rock you fight over it because
5:07
in your mind it becomes something far
5:10
more important than food or territory or
5:13
or even your life and yet here we are
5:16
today generation after generation
5:18
fighting the same struggle especially in
5:20
the context of this conflict that's the
5:23
big question are we condemned to repeat
5:26
the same tragedy over and over over
5:29
again with just different Decor every
5:31
time or do we have some choice about it
5:34
and as a historian I believe in the
5:36
possibility of change history is change
5:39
things do change you look for instance
5:42
at um you know for me one of the best
5:45
measures of the level of violence in the
5:47
world is State budgets because budgets
5:51
are very you know downto Earth cold you
5:54
it's not like poetry it's where does the
5:57
money go for most of History in most
6:00
polies kingdoms Empires city states at
6:04
least 50% of the state budget went to
6:07
the
6:08
military if you look at the big Wars of
6:11
the 20th century in the first world war
6:13
average military expenditure in the UK
6:16
was 50% of the government budget by the
6:19
second world war it was 70% of the
6:21
budget went to the military in the early
6:23
21st century the average expenditure on
6:27
the military throughout the world taking
6:29
all countries together went down to
6:32
7% whereas Health Care was about
6:35
10% um it's amazing I mean we take it
6:38
for granted many people say in the UK
6:40
that the healthc care budget is bigger
6:43
than the military budget but this has
6:45
been a remarkable
6:47
achievement uh proving the ability to
6:50
change human behavior and it's now in
6:52
danger we now see military budgets all
6:55
over the world skyrocketing again well
6:57
is that about power and control control
7:00
because you want to be the most powerful
7:02
state with the biggest military with the
7:04
biggest Force because even here there's
7:06
criticism around that why military
7:08
budget is is low why isn't it being
7:11
increased we are being told that if we
7:14
were to go to war with Russia for
7:16
example in a decade or so we would lose
7:19
as a as a state because the military
7:22
isn't being invested in so you have two
7:24
types of of of kind of magical circles
7:27
happening you can have a vicious circle
7:30
that Russia increases its military
7:31
budget and invades Ukraine so European
7:35
nations obviously feel obliged to
7:37
increase their budget then more Nations
7:40
feel threatened they also increase their
7:42
budgets and everybody increased their
7:43
budgets until we return to a situation
7:47
where everywhere around the world looks
7:49
like Russia which already before the war
7:52
in Ukraine Putin in in preparation for
7:54
The Invasion Putin increased military
7:56
spending in Russia to about 30% of the
8:00
budget and now this is happening in more
8:02
and more countries because they are fed
8:04
to if you don't do it you are exposed
8:07
and this leads to this kind of vicious
8:09
circle and we go back to the Middle Ages
8:12
basically but there is an opposite Trend
8:15
which functioned in in previous decades
8:19
that if some countries lower their
8:21
military expenditure their neighbors
8:23
feel more secure they also lower their
8:25
military expenditure they can spend more
8:27
on healthare and education
8:29
the uh uh citizens of these countries
8:32
they get used to the situation when the
8:34
money is spent on nurses and schools not
8:38
on tanks and life improves they like it
8:42
and more people want to live like that
8:44
so you have these two possibilities of
8:47
magical circles and uh we have to get
8:50
trapped in the positive Circle at
8:52
present we are being sucked into the
8:55
negative Circle so we have a situation
8:58
if we look at uh the situation in the
9:00
Middle East where October 7 a horrific
9:03
event that took place 1200 people were
9:05
left dead and it shocked Israel it
9:10
shocked Israel on so many levels we now
9:13
have a situation where almost 30,000
9:15
Palestinians have been killed in total
9:18
they say 100,000 Palestinians have been
9:20
killed injured missing do you think that
9:24
the response was the right response as a
9:26
historian as someone who understands the
9:29
pain of of Israel as well and the
9:31
tragedy of the Palestinians the the
9:33
biggest piece of the puzzle is missing
9:35
is what is the aim of the war you know
9:38
the most basic maxim of military Theory
9:41
going back to car kovitz is war is the
9:44
continuation of politics by other means
9:48
you cannot understand anything about a
9:50
war unless you know what are its
9:53
political aims and we have many cases in
9:56
history when people think in strictly
9:59
military turns they win every battle and
10:02
they lose the war completely like we saw
10:05
it in the American invasion of Iraq the
10:07
Americans won every significant military
10:11
engagement and they completely lost the
10:14
war the big winner of the Iraq War was
10:17
Iran that came out of the war as the
10:21
hegemonic power in the Middle East and
10:24
much of what is happening right now also
10:25
to Israel and to the Palestinians the
10:28
war between Israel and Hamas the
10:30
threatened war with kisala it all goes
10:33
back to some extent to Iranian hegemony
10:36
in the Middle East which was brought
10:38
about by the American Military
10:42
Victory so um what I would ask of course
10:46
also my government is what are you
10:48
trying to achieve without knowing the
10:52
political aim of a war you cannot know
10:55
anything really about it especially not
10:57
if it's if it's if it's just
10:59
if it is uh um leading in in a positive
11:03
way or not and as a historian I can also
11:06
say that Justice is a very very slippery
11:09
term because you always have especially
11:13
in war both sides have a very different
11:16
conception of Justice because the
11:18
historical narrative is completely
11:20
different if you go back to the 7th of
11:23
October or you go back thousands of
11:25
years Israelis and Palestinians tell a
11:28
very different hisorical narrative and
11:30
therefore they understand Justice
11:32
differently and there is no way really
11:34
to reconcile it you will never get them
11:36
to agree the key is to shift the
11:40
discussion from a discussion about
11:42
Justice to a discussion about peace you
11:45
can't agree what Justice is but peace is
11:48
much more objective because are people
11:51
being killed or not that's an objective
11:54
thing but they've tried over decades to
11:57
talk about peace and it's failed so they
12:00
have to so we have to try again I mean
12:03
you know um what's the alternative to
12:05
just go on fighting
12:07
forever um yes I mean all attempts
12:10
previously made to do to make peace in
12:12
the Middle East at least between Israel
12:14
and Palestinians failed um what can you
12:17
do except try
12:19
again what keeps you up at night with
12:23
this conflict what do you fear
12:26
most personally I feel most for really
12:29
the soul of my country of my nation in
12:33
Israel at the moment there is really a
12:35
battle for the soul of the Israel Nation
12:38
between um patriotism on the one side
12:42
and ideas of Jewish Supremacy on the
12:45
other
12:46
side um the current government it has
12:50
Elements which are anti-zionist are
12:53
against the secular nationalism that
12:56
built uh Israel and are in favor of
13:00
Jewish Supremacy and you know there is a
13:04
very important line in
13:08
the for for every
13:11
nation between
13:13
patriotism and feelings of Supremacy to
13:16
be a patriot is to acknowledge the
13:18
uniqueness of your n of your nation and
13:21
every nation is unique there is nothing
13:24
wrong about feeling that my nation is
13:26
unique and it has a a a right to uh
13:31
develop its unique traditions and
13:34
cultures and so forth and it doesn't
13:36
prevent you from recognizing the
13:38
uniqueness of other nations and their
13:41
rights to live in in dignity and
13:44
prosperity the danger comes when you
13:47
start thinking that my nation is not
13:48
just unique is supreme and it has rights
13:52
which override the ride of anybody else
13:56
and now there is a huge Titanic struggle
14:00
within Israel between these two forces
14:04
and this is my greatest spirit I it's
14:06
I'm I'm not from Kamas it's not from kah
14:08
it's not from Iran it's from this inner
14:11
struggle that uh uh we might lose this
14:14
struggle and then you know that well one
14:17
of the objectives at the very beginning
14:18
of this conflict was that eliminating
14:22
Hamas there are many now coming out at
14:26
the beginning of the conflict but now
14:27
also now saying saying that Hamas is a
14:30
political movement you can't kill an
14:33
ideology do you fear that something more
14:37
violent more brutal will come out of
14:39
this given we have 177,000 orphans now
14:42
as a result of this conflict MH well I
14:44
think that talking about eliminated
14:46
Hamas is is unrealistic uh the more
14:49
realistic goal is to eliminate the
14:51
military capabilities of
14:53
Kamas um again if you think about what
14:56
are the aims of the war so from the
14:59
perspective of Hamas on the 7th of
15:01
October the aim was very clear on the
15:04
7th of October Israel was quite close to
15:06
signing a historical peace treaty with
15:09
Saudi Arabia which was meant to
15:11
normalize relations between Israel and
15:14
much of the Arab world and also to
15:17
potentially restart the Israeli
15:19
Palestinian peace process this was a
15:21
deadly threat to Hamas which objects to
15:25
any Prospect of peace and normalization
15:28
between Israel and the Palestinians and
15:30
the Arab world the aim of the October
15:33
7th attack was to derail to foil this
15:37
attempt and to seow seeds of hatred that
15:40
will prevent any chance for peace years
15:43
in the future and unfortunately Hamas is
15:46
a is achieving its its political aims I
15:50
think that given the ideology of Hamas
15:52
which many times stated that it sees no
15:55
potential for any peaceful solution that
15:57
it only accepts it's the complete
15:59
destruction of Israel then as long as
16:01
Hamas retains its military capabilities
16:04
every time even if we have a ceasefire
16:06
now and we start reconciling and
16:08
rebuilding and down the the road two
16:11
years five years again we we we come
16:14
close to a peace deal they will again
16:17
strike so uh I think that uh again you
16:20
can't eliminate Hamas but it is
16:23
necessary to eliminate at least most of
16:26
its military capabilities of course as
16:28
you say um something even worse might
16:32
might replace it so it's not enough to
16:35
eliminate the military capabilities of
16:36
Kamas we have to struggle and I'm
16:39
talking about when we say we Israel to
16:42
present the Palestinians with a better
16:45
future than what Hamas is offering and a
16:47
better future means to have dignified
16:50
lives in there in the Palestinian
16:53
Homeland I spoke to someone who said who
16:56
for a long time was negotiating
16:59
with both sides and he said you need to
17:01
be able to write the other side's
17:03
victory speech H that's a good point you
17:07
know that but here we are today the
17:10
Prime Minister prime minister Benjamin
17:12
Netanyahu is saying even if the hostages
17:14
are released we will go into Rafa do you
17:18
think that this is the right sort of
17:19
objective and and plan and I just don't
17:23
know what's going on in his mind I'm
17:25
definitely not his press officer and
17:27
cannot explain or or or defend his
17:30
thinking I still haven't heard from him
17:33
a clear statement about what are the
17:36
long-term political aims of the war like
17:39
how do you envision our region the
17:42
Middle East two years five years down
17:45
the
17:46
line um and Wars political conflicts
17:49
there are these kinds of you know like
17:51
children's riddles like these mazes that
17:53
you have to find your way inside a maze
17:55
every child learns at a certain point
17:57
that you have to start from the end like
18:00
you have to start from the objective
18:02
from the door out of the Maze and then
18:04
go walk your way backwards to where you
18:07
are now how do we get there so unless
18:10
you tell me how you envision the Region
18:13
5 years 10 years down the line there is
18:16
no way that we can get there and he's
18:19
refusing to to to say what is his vision
18:22
I sometimes suspect he has no
18:25
vision at the beginning of this
18:26
conversation you talked about your
18:28
children's book and you said for the
18:29
first time in your knowledge and
18:33
understanding of history people don't
18:35
know what the future looks like there is
18:37
uncertainty in a deep sense I mean it's
18:39
not just political uncertainty also in
18:41
the Middle Ages nobody knows if you live
18:43
in England in 1024 you don't know maybe
18:46
next year the Vikings invade nobody can
18:49
predict that but you do know a lot of
18:52
things that are not going to change in
18:54
the next 10 or 50 or 100 years like the
18:57
basic economic structure and the skills
19:00
you need to teach your kids you need to
19:02
teach them how to uh uh um ride a horse
19:06
and bake bread and grow wheat uh because
19:09
these are the kind of things people will
19:11
still be doing in 50 years now we look
19:14
to the Future even 10 or 20 years of the
19:16
future nobody has any idea how the job
19:20
market would look like because there
19:21
things like AI because of AI which means
19:24
that we have no idea what skills to
19:26
teach children today in school
19:29
because you know you say okay let's
19:30
teach them how to code computers in 20
19:32
years maybe AI is doing all the coding
19:35
so you don't need that um and of course
19:37
the repercussions for the social and
19:40
political system are enormous so this is
19:43
a time of of such uncertainty and also
19:47
in other fields like you know uh 100
19:50
years ago so romantic life didn't change
19:54
very much between the generations so if
19:57
you go on your first date you can get
20:00
good advice from your grandfather or
20:02
grandmother but today just to understand
20:06
the setting of the Romantic
20:09
relationships online it's so different
20:12
from what it was 20 or not to say 50
20:15
years ago but it's becoming more and
20:17
more difficult for adults to understand
20:21
the world that the kids have to struggle
20:24
with every day which again deprives the
20:27
kids of something which was always there
20:30
the good advice of of the
20:33
adults so then what advice would you
20:35
give the future
20:38
Generations um the most important skills
20:42
are has to do with emotional
20:44
intelligence that the only thing we know
20:47
about the future is that it will be very
20:49
different from the present and it will
20:51
change at a very very rapid pace so
20:55
people will need a a very strong
20:59
psychological resilience to keep
21:02
changing and keep learning throughout
21:04
their lives we are used traditionally to
21:06
a situation when as a as a child or a
21:10
teenager you learn a lot you you change
21:14
you invent yourself basically and then
21:16
as life proceeds you can kind of calm
21:19
down I mean you always learn new things
21:22
but you mostly uh rely on the skills the
21:27
world view the personality that you
21:29
acquired in in your younger years this
21:32
is not a good plan for the 21st century
21:35
the pace of change will be so rapid that
21:38
even when you are 40 50 60 if you want
21:41
to stay relevant you will have to
21:43
reinvent yourself in radical ways to
21:47
relearn things uh again and again and
21:50
this will create tremendous
21:52
psychological stress because change is
21:55
always
21:56
stressful um and we need to prepare for
21:59
it not just as individuals but also as
22:02
societies that I think governments need
22:05
to think very carefully about investing
22:08
a lot more resources in building uh um
22:13
um for infrastructure for mental
22:17
health um because otherwise I I I don't
22:21
know if people are really built to deal
22:24
with such a level of of of stress
22:27
throughout their lives y Harari thank
22:31
you so much for your time thank
22:33
you
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