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Avner Gvaryahu | Our Harsh Logic: Israeli Soldiers’ Testimonies from the Occupied Territories
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Israeli soldiers, the young men and women in the army, know the truth of the occupation better than anyone—they are the people who carry it out. Now, in a monumental book of collective testimony, OUR HARSH LOGIC: Israeli Soldiers’ Testimonies from the Occupied Territories, 2000-2010 the soldiers speak out and demand to be heard. The Israel Defense Force (IDF) is still held by many to be “the most moral army in the world,” and its actions in the Occupied Territories are—it claims—first and foremost aimed at protecting the country from terror. But the soldiers themselves tell a different story. Talking frankly about what they did, what they were told to do, and what they saw, these young Israelis draw a broad and powerful portrait of an ostensibly defensive military program that in fact serves an offensive agenda. As the soldiers show in vivid and immediate detail, even the key terms of IDF policy—“preventing terror,” “separating populations,” “preserving normal Palestinian life,” and “law enforcement”— in fact mean precisely the opposite on the ground, spreading fear and subjugation, accelerating Jewish settlement and the acquisition of Palestinian land, crippling all political and social life, and ultimately thwarting any possibility of independence.
Avner Gvaryahu was born and raised in a religious Zionist family in central Israel. He joined the IDF as a paratrooper in 2004 and served as a sniper team sergeant in a special operations unit, mainly around Nablus and Jenin. After his discharge, Avner became involved with Breaking the Silence firstly as a researcher but later as Diaspora Activities Coordinator. Avner holds a Master of Social Work from Tel Aviv University and lives in Tel Aviv with his wife. BREAKING THE SILENCE was established in Jerusalem in 2004 by Israel Defense Forces veterans who have served since the beginning of the Second Intifada and have taken it on themselves to expose the public to the realities of everyday life in the occupied territories. They have collected over 800 testimonies to date.
Co-sponsored by the Middle East Institute
WHEN: October 7, 2013
WHERE: 523 Butler Library
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so hi everyone welcome I feel pretty honored that you all came here to hear
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me so thank you for that I'd like to start out with reading a testimony from
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this book that we're touring with called are harsh logic and this is a one of the
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chat one of the stories of one of the testimony is in the first chapter which
0:30
talks about the idea of prevention I'll talk about that in a few minutes and this is a testimony from a unit called
0:37
spear brigade and it's a story that took place in a small village outside of
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Nablus outside of Japan and the place is called sadhus and it's the end of 2009
0:56
historically so the test so the the interviewer asks the soldier during your
1:03
service in the territories what shook you up the most and the answer is a
1:08
search as we did in Collis that was a straw that broke the camel's back they
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said there are 60 houses that we have to we have to search I said that they had to be some sort of a warning for the
1:21
intelligence I tried to justify it to myself was this during the day or the
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night at night he went out as a patrol as a group of soldiers patrolling the
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village of Clovis no the whole division it was an Italian operation they spread
1:41
out over the whole village took control of the school smashed the locks the classrooms
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Robert one room was uses as an investigation room for the Shin Bet for the Secret Service one room for
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detainees one room for soldiers to rest I remember it particularly annoying me
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so the school went house-by-house knocking actually the morning on the family's door they're scared to death
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girls peeing in their pants with fear with bang in the doors there's a feeling of well we'll show them we go into the
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house and turn everything upside down what's the procedure gather the family in one room for the guard there tell the
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guard to keep the gun in them and then search the whole house we received
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another order to arrest everyone between the ages 16 and 29
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doesn't matter who bring him cuffed and blindfolded they yelled at old people
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one of them had an epileptic seizure they carried on yelling at him he didn't speak Hebrew and they continued to yell
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the medic treated it we did the ramp every house we went into they took
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everyone between 16 and 29 and brought them to the school they stacked tied up in the schoolyard did they tell you the
3:05
purpose of all this to locate weapons but we didn't find any weapons and then
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they confiscated kitchen knives what took me the most would shock me the most was there were also there was also
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stealing one person took 20 shekels people went into houses and looked for
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things to steal this was a very poor village at one point guys were saying
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what a bummer there's nothing to steal one guy said they took markers just so I could say that I stole some
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so this is one testimony out of 140 testimonies that we have put together in
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this book these are a hundred and forty testimonies now that close to a thousand
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individual soldiers that we have met so we're talking about thousands of testimonies thousands of stories that we
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have gathered up until today what
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that'll do very quickly is I'll introduce myself and I'll introduce the organization that I represent breaking
4:11
the silence and I'll try to spend most of our time together actually talking
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about this analysis analysis that we did in this book that we published which is
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actually for us a pretty new step and I'll get to that in a second why why we
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think this book is so important than you know what made me leave my my house at
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9:00 and wifer for three and half weeks and toward the States and why we feel this is so important to get the message
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out there so thank you to introduction
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and thank you the world history department the Middle East Department for having me in co-sponsoring this
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event and again thank you for all of you for coming so so like I was introduced I
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grew up in Israel and a religious family an orthodox family I think it's only
5:12
relevant in this discussion because in the community that I grew up in in
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Israel was very clear than me from a very young age that my next step in life after high school is going to the army
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my grandmother herself actually fought in 1948 in the Israel what Israelis
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called the war of independence Palestinians called the Nakba you know
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she tells a story of running of Jerusalem with a metal pan on their
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head to make sure she wouldn't be hit by the ricochets my dad was a paratrooper
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that served in 1973 and I'm named after his shoulder that was killed and they
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okie for war and when I finished my high school I finished high school and
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thinking about my army service I what I knew that I'm gonna do the best I can to
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be the best I can be and to get into the most elite army unit as I can and when I
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think back of this the reason I did that was because I care too much I cared
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about my country about my society my communities I believed that I had my
6:27
right to protect myself and in that sense even though this was in 2004 and
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today were in 2013 that's exactly the same thing that brings me in front of you today and in that sense when I look
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back what were the things that motivated me as an 18 19 year old to of course
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only to the army but also a volunteer would be a paratrooper in a special operations unit was because I cared
6:59
deeply about my country and the only way I see that I could continue to do that
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caring is by today breaking my silence and talking about this reality that I was part of I started my service after
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about a year of training serving mostly around not Melissa and Ginny which are
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the northern part of the West Bank break over here and while surfing maybe this
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will surprise a lot of you maybe this will surprise most of people sitting here but the first time that I actually
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had a real interaction not only hearing about or
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seeing sitting on the bus or reading about the newspaper in first time I had a real interaction with a Palestinian
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was when I started my service almost a year into my service and we were
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actually ordered to do something called a straw Widow which I'll explain with me
8:04
what that means in a second and we entered a Palestinian home in the middle
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of the night that was my first face-to-face interaction with a Pelton and the mission that we warded to do was
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something that I know there's some Israelis here in the crowd maybe some of
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them know the Turks probably the world might not cash in Hebrew but I think
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even if I would have a similar crowd in Israel most people today do not know what straw window actually means alright
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so in that sense this breaking of silence is something that is definitely and we spend most of our editors there
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by the way should happen also inside the Israeli society and this mission of a
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strong way that was basically taking over a house for military purposes meaning I want to use the window
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alright I want to look over a junction a road a village Center you go into the
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house in the middle of the night take the entire family lock them in one room
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if they want to use the bathroom they want to use the kitchen and need permission from you and that was my
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first ever interaction with Palestinian business and that was one intimate
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throughout dozens and dozens of strong windows of arrests of checkpoints
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check-posts and basically what you could imagine
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controlling population looks like and
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throughout my service I think one of the strongest things that I felt which eventually would like pushed me to
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breaking the silence is something that today when I speak with my friends in the organization we all felt and there's
9:56
this very strong feeling when you're in the West Bank when you're serving but this whole idea of right and wrong good
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or bad that in our day to day life were sure we know it's to differentiate so easily suddenly for three years is all put in
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the blender and the Twitter's into too much and you know in my unit alone there
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were and I read this testimony from 2009 but similar things happened in my unit I
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mean this isn't the story from that I read is definitely not a unique story
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it's something that that happened at the beginning of the Second Intifada in 2000 something that happens if you'd like in
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our latest testimonies in the last year so and in my service I somehow found a
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way to constantly constantly justifying this entire reality to myself and I
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still today try to explain to myself how I did it and I still don't know if I
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have a good answer but one of the things that in that sense managed to burst this
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bubble was towards the end of my service I went I went home on the weekend and
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someone were they finished the army gave you this black booklet it said on it
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breaking the silence of Braham 2004 2000 2004
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and I look at it but now asked him what does it he says read it on the way into the base back to Annapolis I read
11:33
through these testimonies and I read that these are soldiers that not serve if not not serving my same unit do not
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serve in the same place but their stories are unbelievably similar to what my experience and that was a very
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important moment for me politicizing news for me because throughout my service I thought well there's a few
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isolated incidences right there's a few so there's this one guy in my unit who we call the Tasmanian devil and he'll to
12:02
go into the house and you know the house never was the same and there was the one guy that used to slap Palestinians on
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the head all the way when they were arrested all the way to the base but the reason you know but that's not the
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that's not all of us and it's only famine and when I read through these testimonies I understood two things
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first of all this is a much bigger picture who'd like maybe a story of a generation and I think the second thing I
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understood that this was much more important for me is for a second that was really like this crystallizing
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moment where are you stood the problem or not than what people tend to call these isolated incidences or these
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rotten apples right they're not isolated they happen that happen in every unit we
12:48
throw up testimonies but much more important than focusing on the rotten apples is let's understand the rotten
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baskets and in that but one of the things that we say which is very important for us to say I have personal
13:02
response ability we have personal responsibility maybe that's what's bringing me in front of you today but in order to change this
13:07
reality of this long-lasting control over millions of people that's the be
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first of all political solution you have to understand and do not have to change the army but we have to change the
13:18
system right in that sense and occupation or in this control an army
13:26
control and this testimonial book put me
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on this you know personal journey where I tried to define some answers I was
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told in my my high school in my Achieva my religious high school that a good Jew
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walks around with question marks around his head and I had a lot of I have a lot a lot of questions and with those
13:54
questions I was searching for some answers and I eventually found myself in a tour with breaking the silence of the
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South Hedland Hills going to Palestinian village called sucia I'm standing in
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sucia inside this Palestinian village on the other side of the hill you know like
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in like the dr. Seuss story and other side of the hill there's a settlement of
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Suseela and I remember that the year and a half earlier I was a soldier guarding
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Sousou and that gave me a lesson in perspectives eventually I went that more
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tours talked to more people eventually decided to give a testimony myself to breaking the silence and I've been
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involved in the organization for four years now I do most of our work
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in North America and with the work in Israel with the Jewish communities the
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non Israeli Jewish community people and Gabi or binnacle students and and so on I have to say these four years have been
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extremely interesting not necessarily easy but in my perspective this is the
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only way I know how to deal with this reality by speaking out and picking up a
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mirror to the society to send me there breaking the silence started July 2004
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so I searched from 2004 to 2007 the guys had started organization were actually
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you know enlisted about three years before me and they served in Chevron
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during the peak of a Second Intifada the interesting thing about this group unlike me and most of our specifiers
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today they came together as 60 soldiers who all served together in the not
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abrogate the 50th Naha Brigade into their own and all of them came together and said let's talk about this let's
15:54
open this up and let our societies our communities our families our friends our
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youth movements understand what they're actually asking us to do right and start
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this discussion which is so important and in our perspective lacking in this
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into this discourse what are our moral values what are our mold boundaries and
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what they decide to do is put together an exhibition of photos of themselves in
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different positions of themselves of Palestinians and this is basically
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pictures that they took all the exhibition were photos that soldiers
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took of a reality that they were part of and underneath each and every picture
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they told the story they told a story they tried to bridge
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this gap or break the silence they were blown away with the amount of interest in two weeks alone they were close to
17:01
ten thousand people that came to see them see this exhibition they were also
17:09
invited to come and present their stories in the Israeli Parliament in the Knesset which is probably today in the
17:18
our political route that they probably isn't going to happen but then but in
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that sense beside this act of breaking their silence that they did with the
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exhibition two very important things happened I think the most important things that could have happened for the
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organization the first thing is that they realized with amount of interest that there's something here that's
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bigger than them and this push them to say well which is not only about this photo exhibition with let's form an
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organization and the second thing that happened which I think is very interesting is soldiers came to see this
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exhibition on their weekend out of the army and they didn't serve with them in
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Heffron they didn't serve in their same U and then but a lot of them came out and said you don't understand what the
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what's the big deal we also do this it's also what we do in Annapolis or in
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Ramallah and we're in the wearing different or gays and we have you know a different different you know different
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stories that you tell them different brigades but we also do this and that's when they realize that this like I said
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is much wider story not only the 50th not all the Taliban's our own but this
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wider story that that's to do with every soldier serving in the West Bank
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originally it really started with combat male soldiers and you know what you will
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the picture of the soldier like like the picture of the soldier on the on our
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book right with the helmet but very quickly female soldiers came as well and
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they said some of us combat position some of us served in different positions in the West Bank and
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we have something to give it something to say and eventually breaking the silence like I said today has met host a
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thousand soldiers and we have published ten publications throughout the years
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which are which try to bridge this gap of knowledge unless people know what it
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means to control people by force and we gather testimonies from soldiers in the
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West Bank and of course East Jerusalem is part of West Bank and Gaza our
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publications have been till now around specific areas geographical areas have
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been sometimes of specific groups for example you can find us in a website we
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published a booklet of female testimonies I think one of the most important publications and probably the
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most controversial ones one was around Operation Cast Lead and in that sense we
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try as much as we can it's not the easy amour in the in the oral history
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department it's not easy to document and publish it's a you know it's not you
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know it's not something that you can do from today to tomorrow but in that sense we try to get information as quickly as
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we can out there and start this discussion what we do in the
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organization is maybe the heart of our work is gathering these testimonies the second part of our work is educational
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work with these testimonies we'll take people to the ground abroad to south
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urban Hills give lectures to who's ever interested we spend most of our efforts
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in the Israeli society 60% of our work is in Israel with Israelis 20% that's
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pretty much what I do with a non Israeli Jewish crowd but one of the things we get heavily criticized for is the fact
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that we don't only speak with Israelis don't only speak with Jews and in that sense what we're doing now could be
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criticized one of the things by the way we don't think take this lightly even
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though in our time and age where everything is open everything is out there we don't take this lightly we understand that this is an issue and the
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topic that should be addressed but in that sense we feel it's much more dangerous to keep these things quiet and
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I understand that that's a point to the date and if you'll have some questions about that at the end of the happy to
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address that and then maybe the third part of our work is this is important
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for us to say we're not only about this personal guitarist so we're not only about getting the stories out there but
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we are about changing a political reality and we are here to increase
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resistance to the occupation of course in a non-violent way but we want to do
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whatever we can and this is what how we can be relevant to the story so people
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know we believe when people hear what's happening on the ground the vast majority of them will understand and
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assess and maybe the one of the one of the discussions are that there's always
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there in this issue that is really common in conflict with Israeli occupation is okay well one stage or to
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stay well if you're doing this you're doing that and in that sense what we try
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to do is before you go into that discussion which is an important one and it has to be done take a few steps back
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and and we could be attacked for many different reasons we could attack for
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talking out of a country or airing our dirty laundry and whatnot but one of the things that were not attacked for is the
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truth that's work with it we're putting out there and in that sense you know I
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don't think that were but there's anything new in these stories all right I mean there's if you listen to the
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Palestinian stories these be coming up for years I think what we can say very
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clearly is look was telling this now right and in that sense of what we can
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hope to do is change a political reality you'll get information out there to whoever is relevant to change so that's
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a quick introduction of me and breaking the silence let's try to pop a little bit about this book in this publication
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and you'll tell me how I am the timing because I can usually go on and on after
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about seven years of gathering testimonies but we actually started
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gathering stories from soldiers and soldiers of the peak of the second soldiers the beginning of the Second
23:38
Intifada from September 2000 in end of
23:43
2009 we said we have this body of stories right we have dozens and dozens
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of testimonies and we thought maybe it's about time we do a little bit of analysis but not only talk about look
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this is what occupation looks like right this is the pride that it is taken from
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the Palestinian Society in the Palestinian community right this is the effect that has on us as individuals and
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maybe on our society as well but let's put this out there very clearly this is
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important for me to say we were not a victim let's put that out there very
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clearly we were control into a system right that sense you can talk about
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responsibility on both sides and there's violent actions on each side but in the end of the day this is a system that's
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built by Israel for Israel there's you know there's no there's no dispute of it
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and when we started thinking about doing a little bit of analysis this reality we came together as an
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organization and we started working on on this book that we published but
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before I say what this in the book I think it's very important to say what's not in the book and there's a lot of things that are not in the book a lot of
25:00
testimonies that we don't have right we don't gather testimonies from Palestinians we don't gather testimonies
25:06
from Israelis was really settlers we don't gather testimonies from government
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officials right from high-ranking officers not you know generals and and
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so on we do have some pretty high-ranking officers of theirs testimonials we spent a fair amount of
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time in their army services definitely not in generals and we don't have testimonies of the Secret Service what
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we do have is a story which i think is relevant to anyone it doesn't really
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matter how you think this should change how you think what your political outcomes would be this is relevant to
25:43
you because what we can talk about is what was what the actions or what the orders from up high looks like on the
25:49
ground and we started working putting
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this analysis together I think one of the things that we constantly constantly hear and constant comes up is that
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basically what we're doing maybe looks bad maybe that but in the end of the day
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it's for defense right Israel's protection is real security and I have
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to say that this is definitely part of the story right maybe a distorted idea of security we'll try to break that down
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a little bit but actually most of what we're spending our efforts in right on the ground is actually an offensive that
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right and what I'll try to do now is break that down a little bit and what we
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really did with with as we took four terms or four words that
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are known to I would say every soldier sure but for the vast majority of
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Israelis as well and don't necessarily have a negative connotation to them as
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well and I'll try to explain that and we took these four terms as we see that
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maybe the four pillars of occupation what is allowing this reality distance
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to sustain itself to maintain itself and broke those four words down and what we
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try to do in the book is if you like translate them I talk about what these
27:17
terms actually look like today on the ground now I'll start with the first
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chapter of the book and this is also the longest chapter and I'll spend the most amount of time talking about it but also
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try to refer to the other three chapters the first chapter of the book is a term
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called prevention I think people the term prevention is called Sakura and
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quiz when Israelis here see quarter what comes to mind right it's a clearing with
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God right targeted prevention that's what it means literally right targeted
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prevention when the basically means is assassinations right we have a synonym this is the scenario that has always
28:11
brought up a ticking bomb scenario right the Palestinian was on his way to kill
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Israeli citizens or Israeli soldiers and he couldn't be sometimes strapped with
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Beltre with the gunner you know he's on
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his way to commit this act what we have to do is to stop him before he gets
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there right and we can have a discussion which I think there's an interesting one of the limits of power and can you
28:46
execute without trial and so on so forth but that's beside that being an interesting discussion that's where most
28:53
people when they hear the word prevention that's where it states like we're going to do these targeted prevention to stop someone who was out
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there to kill us and there's a Jewish order in the Bible autumnal
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natashka will go up he that will rise to kill you you shall kill him first but
29:12
the interesting thing about this reality is that this is a very specific
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situation - like a tip in this reality and imagine a triangle for a second and
29:24
the tip of the triangle you actually have these realities of a ticking bomb
29:30
but they don't happen every day actually something that happens in comparisons
29:38
what we're talking about pretty rarely but what we can talk about today is what
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prevention turned into and if you look at this as a triangle right after this
29:48
idea of targeted prevention right assassinate assassinating people that are taking bombs we know today that
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Israel also assassinated people that weren't specifically taking bombs we wanted to get our hands on them wasn't
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easy for us to arrest them so we draw Catholic on a bombing at their house right or we show them
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sometimes from 900 800 meters away right I was a sergeant of a sniper see those
30:15
permissions that my soldiers did with me leaning but when we continue on in this
30:23
triangle if you like we can continue on with different ways of Palestinians will
30:30
kill we can talk about specific times in the past decade where Palestinians in
30:37
big cities well I definitely I do through the city if you see a Palestinian with a binocular you can get
30:43
the kill or standing with a cell phone or standing on the rooftop right this
30:49
varies in that sense but what does it take a bomb when you shoot into it but I think the widest sense of this and this
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will surprise maybe manuals is revenge
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killings we know of at least a dozen revenge killings took place by the idea
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one of the most famous ones is when six
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Israeli soldiers were killed in the checkpoint near Ramallah called a Malik
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next the next night three different units were sent to three different places one in Ramallah one in Nablus one
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in Gaza which does the whole Israel in between and they were sent there giving
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orders anyone standing in a specific checkpoint a certain time at night to
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shoot the people and then the 9:15 Palestine police found it we have testimonies from
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soldiers and this mission from officers and sergeants it was a big piece in
31:55
Google in Mali used to be a very big Israeli newspaper
32:01
people survived over the next couple of years but Google immolate this comes up and
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this story was published that of course is people who are involved in these issues this isn't news and in that sense
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we take this specific idea of prevention and make it wider and wider and wider if
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we don't even only have to stay in this specific idea of sequiny targeted
32:29
prevention we can talk about arrests right something that happened much more common right so you think of who you can
32:36
arrest or who you'll arrest in this reality so you think of people who are involved in terrorist organizations
32:42
organizations that are trying to attack Israelis and whatnot but that's really
32:48
this tip scenario we also can talk about going out to the rest someone who's not there arrest his brother or he's not the
32:55
rest his cousin right and in that sense again we can continue on and on which
33:01
one of the we read the part about this in hottest but we know about you know
33:07
many many stories where you go out and arrest everyone in the village between eighteen and I think one of the most
33:17
interesting or the peaks of this idea of prevention right the most interesting
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example of this idea of prevention is a type of mission that I got many times
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and for soldiers all over the West Bank here and carry out orders to have your
33:36
presence felt and the idea of having
33:41
your presence felt is we will be in every place and every time in any second
33:47
right when we're talking about when we're sitting here in the room very very well there are now two patrols
33:54
in the city 30 and 39 right there patrolling around the city and their
34:00
orders are to have your presence felt right that movie alone was now the chief
34:06
with Minister of Defense who's to be chief of staff and he coined the phrase to brand the Palestinian consciousness I
34:12
did so he buckled up and in that sense the way it looks on the ground couldn't
34:19
have that many different ways with look we were ordered to go into the town show that work there's a new sheriff right
34:25
you can shoot land pose sometimes officially water tanks right now LeBron you enter houses right so you randomly
34:33
enter a house women to the right men to the left search through the house three four in the morning there could be it
34:40
could be a couple houses it depends how much energy you have how much time you have and that said any Palestinian in
34:47
the room or in Ramallah or in Bethlehem or basically all over the West Bank constantly constantly has to feel that
34:54
there's an Israeli soldier right here and we don't see ourselves we don't see
35:03
ourselves as a human rights organization per se in that sense we we we
35:11
differentiate between they're working in conflict or working on conflict we're trying to to work on a flick and change
35:17
this reality which is a political reality but if we'll take the terminology from the human rights for a
35:23
second what this actually means is collective punishment
35:28
what this basically means is it doesn't matter how you want to live your life as a Palestinian there's nothing you can do
35:35
that will get you away from this reality like when I think and just you know for
35:43
instance when I think of my future and I see my future in Israel right I see my you know starting a family in Israel and
35:50
I think of the fact that my neighbor doesn't matter what he does or how we
35:56
will live with his life right if he decides to be and live his life like Mahatma there's still nothing you can do to get
36:03
their way from this and I think one of the most interesting testimonies but we
36:08
have gotten and it's actually more recently than not ancient history right mm and the Middle Eastern times is uh
36:15
making ancient history recent testimonies which have had
36:20
publications not only in our testimonies of the media and newspapers and
36:25
television operations called mock arrests ma arrests with the orders of
36:33
the super soldiers are actually entering the house to train right there's monk
36:40
arrest there's moxtra windows you go into the house take the end of the family by his eyes and fanny dry five six bones and the spine is find the way
36:47
back I took part in the mission like this was a wasn't a mock arrest was a marks probably no thanks girl Widow but
36:54
I prefer a lot of times often it means we're holding work we're training on
37:00
people and depakote but the more interesting part the more interesting aspect of that is I would say you know
37:07
that's one aspect of the training the soldiers the bed respect or what is much more beneficial in that sense is it's
37:15
helping us to have our presence felt like an we imagine what this does the community or society when you're taking
37:22
someone who had no connection to any organization and nothing and no prior history time to
37:28
take him like what confusion that causes I'm not talking about the psychological aspects my sister the family was and in
37:37
that sense when we when we talk about prevention and this is what the you know
37:42
underneath each chapter we also you know if you like we gave it to the short translation what prevention me and we
37:50
talked about prevention being intimate intimidating with Palestinian population and we see today this idea of prevention
37:59
you know in order for us to feel secure
38:05
what we basically have to do is control Palestinian the second chapter of the
38:15
book is talks about separation and
38:20
separation when you think about separation and don't know what most of you think but at least on the table
38:26
today most people are talking about separation right the two-state solution is the form of separation but the
38:35
interesting thing is that even though most of us think that the separation the future separation or the the current
38:42
separation with the wall of the barrier or what not is there to separate
38:48
Israelis from Palestinians that's part of it but it's actually a small part of
38:53
what we're doing we're spending most of our efforts separating Palestinians from
38:59
Palestinians right we're separating Palestinians outside of the West Bank in
39:05
Gaza right with separate Palestinians from in Israel and the West Bank as well right
39:11
we're separating Palestinians from Gaza and from the West Bank but even if you only look specifically inside the West
39:18
Bank the West Bank is divided into five different regions right then it depends the past decade but Palestinians driving
39:26
from north to south acts that have to actually cross through different regions right so you can be a carpenter from
39:33
Berlin from London it wants to take your merchandise up to Annapolis and you can
39:39
make it half the way but then you won't be able to cross we don't have a permit to that specific area of the specific
39:44
zone but even in cities for example two rooms the city is divided to separate
39:52
like originally by an agreement was signed both by the Israelis and Palestinians but I encourage you guys
39:58
and I'll say this again go up on our website and see a short video about the
40:03
road and you'll realize our responsibility in them of course we also separate Palestine from each other or
40:10
from families or separate things from their land and I think it can in that
40:17
sense and of course very well don't write those 8 area apse break with
40:24
separate opinions automatically an area a B and C but we won't have time to go
40:29
into all of that but what we're actually doing is this idea of divide and conquer
40:34
breaking what kind of Palestinian community or Palestinian leadership can
40:41
grow in a place like this right I remember we took it's already a year ago
40:48
group of journalists and diplomats and piggy makers down to the South Hedland
40:55
Hills to see the reality there and Salam Fayyad was back then the Palestinian
41:01
Prime Minister asked to join and he joined in the talk that he was part of
41:07
what was happening there we moved from one Palestinian village another Palestinian village a five-minute drive
41:15
he was not allowed to cross because you know the soldier there from a body
41:23
called the Civil Administration so it's civil administration which will say weird about insane prevented them from
41:28
crossing but in that sense and for the Palestinians and socia see themselves as
41:33
Palestinians right maybe we would like to be represented by some employer that he has no authority over them and he has
41:39
no responsibility in that sense and and I think this idea of separation is an
41:46
unbelievable tool right which is allowing this reality to maintain the
41:58
third chapter get worried about
42:04
separation specifically in the area see I think is very interesting that those of you that are following what is
42:10
happening in the region I think what we see pretty clearly is this quiet if
42:19
you'd like annexation of Area C and of course the psyche of separation helps us out very very much I think that when a
42:25
Palestinian is not getting permits to build not me to connect the water electricity and
42:32
eventually he will leave it will move over slowly it is really but that's maybe a different lecture the third
42:39
chapter this idea of fabric of life again what's wrong with fabric of life
42:45
wreck Israel is mean allowing the palace ensign maintain their path of life and in that sense one of the most
42:50
interesting testimonies and in the book is a testimony from soldiers from the
42:58
Civil Administration writes illustration is a body that works today underneath
43:06
the Ministry of Defence they're also soldiers there but also civilians I
43:11
would say not a small amount of the civilians are many times settlers as well or in this body which ministration
43:19
Palestinian life and they control what is happening in the West Bank in different levels like much more an area
43:26
in Area C less so in area B unless so an
43:31
area a within that sentence there's no question about our control over the West
43:37
Bank a friend of mine and his reserve do with the year and a half ago went
43:44
parading between it between the two mountains of Nablus in the heart of the
43:50
city right there was no reason to do it but they could do it right in this idea
43:55
the fabric of life is something we have to understand we're allowing the Palestinians to maintain their fabric of
44:01
like you can always take it back and that's that's basically what control
44:06
means right I mean in that sense it's not about making the situation look better it's about changing this reality
44:12
where we have the power to control millions of people
44:21
and I think that you know in that sense it's always in the grace of the occupier
44:27
right it's always in our decision take to give a permit or not to give approval right then if will give permits for
44:35
example to move from place to Mazur place the place or even to work in Israel right people who are going to work in Israel right then will pass
44:43
ourselves in the back and say look look look how nice we are is out for the last
44:51
chapter and then I'll try to close this up and maybe leave some time for a
44:57
discussion and I'm sure you have some questions and thoughts and ideas about what we've been talking about is this
45:04
idea of law enforcement this idea of law enforcement again what's what's wrong
45:10
with law enforcement in order to understand this idea of law enforcement what we talk about the law enforcement
45:16
we talk about this idea of it dual regime and for the first time ever one
45:22
of the things that we haven't been talking about in the last which is
45:30
something that is on the mind of everyone dealing in this reality the
45:35
settlements and settlers and I think this isn't by chance first of all it's
45:41
important for us to put on the table settlers of settlements are part of this reality right many times they're
45:48
referred to as the biggest obstacle for peace and I think in that sense they're
45:54
much more of an indication that in this time and age we are not interested in changing the reality or ending
46:01
occupation when we talk about this idea of we talk about this idea of marshal of
46:08
the law enforcement the first time that the settlements come into the picture and I think the interesting thing that
46:14
comes the testimony is that today settlers and settlements are actually seen as an
46:22
integral part of the night of this idea of security I'll try to explain this and
46:27
this is for me one of the most important things we can try to talk about and I
46:33
think this is also something when I speak to my Israeli friends and of course my friends back home the guys
46:40
it's served with me this is something that is not always clear right especially today when this
46:46
the Green Line is the facto being erased right and for sure for Israelis it's not
46:52
it's for sure not difficult to cross the Green Line and growing up in the
46:57
religious Zionist community which is maybe the community that is the backbone of the settlement movement and I have an
47:04
uncle who lives in the settlement post and autumn I need friends from high
47:09
school live in settlements you know they don't understand what's the problem I
47:15
mean what's the difference between here and living there and I think one of the important things that we can try to
47:22
understand in this reality and for a second will put the soldiers testimony to the side
47:27
let's talk only about the law right let's talk about this reality that we're
47:33
living in today not has nothing to do with an individual soldiers decision and
47:39
in that sense the interesting thing we have to understand is that in the West Bank there's two populations such a
47:46
living side-by-side but delivering under totally a totally different set of the rules right Palestinians are living
47:53
under martial law under army control and Israelis are living under Israeli
47:59
civilian law right this comes of course in many many examples where
48:05
where this will differ but let's take an example that will of course the emotional and will maybe will also help
48:13
you remember children what happens if you have two children let's talk about
48:19
the area of the around remodel our the South bedroom pills or interferon itself
48:24
you have two children that throw stones at you wearing cabral I'm from a few times a week I was don't vote by the
48:31
Israeli than by Palestinians when they throw a stone at you the question is and
48:37
let's say they're over 12 because that's the age that you're under the law right you're allowed to detain them the rest
48:43
of even though just recently there was a five year old that was detained into the room right and there's kids between
48:49
those ages who are also detainment sometimes even arrested right but let's talk about again the law but you have
48:55
two 12 year olds both throwing stones and they're both caught what happens to these two children right afterwards and
49:02
that's where this this this dual law comes into the play because if after 12
49:08
hours the Israeli child did not see a judge he has to be sent home that's the
49:15
law I'm a social worker by profession I'm happy that's the law two months but
49:24
a Palestinian that did the exact same thing goes into an army court of course
49:31
and can be held for four times that one right if we're talking about how long an
49:37
Israeli could you could later on pass this out there's there's a whole diagram with this but how long and Israeli could
49:44
the Israeli child could be held before seeing a lawyer so we're talking about
49:50
two days how long a Palestinian in the health for single order 19 how long can
49:56
they be held before charges at rest bonia for israeli 160 if you're
50:01
Palestinian eventually there are no Israeli children in prison right there
50:07
are as there are Palestinian children in prison so in that sense the important thing to understand this dual reality there is not even a
50:14
potential for equality and inside the Israeli society there's a lot of things
50:19
that we haven't fight with and there's definitely racism and inequality and whatnot in the in your community as well
50:25
right but in that sense at least there's the potential for equality you can fight it in in courts you can fight it in by
50:36
demonstrating in the parliament but in the system that this is not a system
50:42
which is built by the people for the people but this by Israel for Israel right this is the will always create
50:49
this reality of inequality one of the most interesting testimonies that comes
50:55
up in that sense of how with a settler settlers today have become an integral part of Israel's security is something that I
51:03
also did but the testimony of soldiers who come to settlement could also be
51:09
what does Israel calls illegal settlements or unauthorized I think is more accurate because under
51:15
international law all settlements are illegal but this real reads that differently of course and they'll talk about
51:21
authorized settlements and unauthorized settlements and in that time even we soldiers are sent an unauthorized
51:28
settlements the people who will give them the orders who's allowed in what
51:34
are the ready green lines meaning pass the red lines of Palestine could get shot where you stand is many times the
51:42
set a settler himself what is called
51:47
that upshots a regional gardening officer he's an individual that is protecting the
51:53
settlement of course armed will gets his money from the Ministry of Defense right
51:59
so in that sense the settlers today I don't know if this has always been the case but we can definitely talk about
52:04
this today I've become an integral part of what Israel see that's an added
52:09
security and when we talk about law enforcement then maybe you've heard of this term price tag you have
52:19
it's not the only settlers actually but it's started out with settlers attacking there's also Israelis were not so
52:25
loosely getting involved in price tag well they're attacking Palestinians for different reasons couldn't be because
52:31
there was an attack by Palestinians on Israeli still revenge it could be if an
52:37
outpost was taken down by the army to attack a Palestinian it could be because there was a discussion or a law or
52:43
whatnot and there's it's from graffitiing cousin down olive trees to physically attack me and worse the case
52:53
of and in that sense when you think about how this is happening and there's
53:00
all these questions in the night why don't we stop them and where it's law enforcement how do you enforce law over
53:06
the law itself like in that sense we can come out and say very clearly that this
53:11
idea of law enforcement is funny when you look truly into this reality because
53:19
today the settlements and the settlers are definitely seen as an integral part
53:25
of Israel and integral part of Israel's security I want to conclude and then
53:33
open it up for and then sure I'm sure
53:39
you have some thoughts about this mr.
53:44
Brahn invantive 2008 we have a testimony of a soldier with the organ golf in the
53:50
pillbox which is a gardening post where the orders are written black and white
53:56
to disrupt the day-to-day life of the Palestine populations now when we talk
54:04
about this idea of security right now all this thing is done right all this
54:09
all these tools if you'd like that I've shown you from the toolbox that we're using are all justified in the name of
54:16
security is this not security maybe it is but in our sense a distorted idea of
54:22
security this this idea of security like I said is it's either us or them and in that sense
54:30
we will only feel that our security is maintained when we will control
54:36
Palestinians I think one of the interesting examples of that is is
54:44
really Ramallah right then Ramallah during the peak of a
54:51
second-team you find that there were tanks in Ramallah today they're much less presence than what it was 10 years
54:57
ago and there's a nightlife and there's coffee shops and whatnot go 20 minutes
55:04
out of our mouth at that bill it's called Nabi Saleh there was Google Deniz
55:09
a lot that we very interesting is written about this village 500 people in the Masada 22:50 have been arrested dozens have
55:17
been injured - amiko we're spending so much energy in stopping this resistance
55:26
or this Popular Resistance does anyone think that Nabi Saleh has opposing a
55:31
threat security threat to Israel no but I think comparing Nabi Saleh to Ramallah
55:38
is most interesting because today Ramallah is not questioning Israel's
55:43
security Ariel's control may be so it is and that's why we'll always be in the cycle
55:50
because we will always see our security as control over Palestinians and I think
55:59
that there's nothing really that that Palestinians and that fence could do that will change it right because as we
56:06
know they're not going to give up their right for freedom and equality I mean it's enough to look around the world
56:12
you know I don't want them to freedom and equality all right so we're always going to be in this site
56:17
and I'll just finish with with this where you know here is where we
56:28
basically can go back to braving the silences basic idea is we're against
56:33
control over Pelton over a civilian population and what we're doing today
56:40
with Israel is is spending most of its efforts doing is actually entrenching itself in this reality now you can talk
56:50
about different conflicts around the world and there are the I wasn't in a
56:57
Syrian army or the Korean army I was an Israeli soldier that's what's important
57:05
in the American army or the Russian army in that sense and one of the things we say and I think is extremely true is
57:11
silence is not an Israeli epidemic look
57:16
conflicts around the world as is something here you see over and over again but what we can also say is this
57:25
is a unique reality we want to change the force for our benefit and you know hopefully all ingredients with that but
57:32
we're in this reality where unlike in other areas and conflict let's talk specifically about you know the US
57:39
efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan and you can criticize them and talk about them and I can criticize them but there and
57:45
even if they're only saying they're trying to win hearts and minds maybe it's not working no one does think that no one is
57:51
thinking that the Americans are their mistake right eventually the question is when other troops can come back when
57:58
we're talking about this reality is it which is different there in the other side of five minutes away 38 kilometers from
58:04
Jerusalem that's different but what we have to understand is extremely relevant
58:10
is we're doing whatever we can to keep the status quo and the only thing I
58:15
could hope that you will agree upon with me after hearing this is we can debate
58:22
about the solution should be a one stage here to a state and in breaking the silence there's people that have
58:27
different opinions about what the solutions would be in the people that they can different stands on their actions right but what we can come out
58:34
and say is this is something you have to recognize and the most dangerous thing for me and the most horrible thing we
58:43
can continue the Palestinians is keeping the status quo and that sense for
58:49
Israelis there's either the father or quiet no there there are Israelis living
58:57
in the south of Israel that were petrified living day to day and their attacks of rockets but there are mine or
59:03
the inside district most Israelis you know in that sense they say if it's not broken why fix it no there's no reason
59:11
to change it of course Palestinians don't have the chance to ignore this this this
59:17
occupation and I think I'll just hand
59:24
with with this idea that there's a
59:31
difference which is very important for us to to put out there between talking about the israeli-palestinian conflict
59:38
which is didn't start in 67 right
59:43
much more much much much before that and talking about the conflict that has two sides and responsibilities and talking
59:52
about an occupation and occupation is part of the israeli-palestinian conflict
59:57
I think in that sense in order to truly try to end the israeli-palestinian
1:00:04
conflict we have to start with any occupation or wanting to end occupation
1:00:10
how will we do it okay they will sit in the room and negotiate but we want to want to end
1:00:16
occupation and in that sense what we can hope to give for this discussion or to
1:00:21
you know push their into that room is no matter how we turn this but we have to
1:00:27
maintain Israel's security right there is a lot of American politicians
1:00:32
referring to Israel talk about the secure Israel divide the Palestine right but what but yeah
1:00:39
Israel is has it's right for security but that's not a cop most secure in Israel insecure of Palestine alright
1:00:44
let's talk about and one of my close friends from was the wrong asylum or was a credible person he says something
1:00:53
which is straight to the heart he said security is a mutual concept and in that sense it's in my interest like I
1:01:01
think it is in the Palestinians interest to keep me safe and it's my interest to keep them safe but that will only happen
1:01:08
when we will be willing and this control over Palestinians
1:01:14
I'm optimist an optimum optimist because this is what I choose to do and I believe that there is an end to this and
1:01:21
we can push things in the right direction but between optimism and is realism one of the phrases that I was
1:01:29
taught in my engagement high school is I man ends up wrongful death the death of woke up they eternal people free to the
1:01:37
Jews are not afraid of the long journey and there's a long journey I had the bus for both sides but the only way we will
1:01:44
be able to start understanding this from very basic prison which you all understand most people in the United
1:01:52
States understand most people around the world I also think most people in Israel understand it but they're not willing to
1:01:59
take a stand there is everyone deserves freedom in equality and this can't be
1:02:07
you know something we're spending so much of our efforts maintain so I want
1:02:15
to leave some time for also sign up
1:02:35
right behind you guys over there around
1:02:51
let's start with questions I'll write them down on Friday and rescue with a time passing on the sign up to throwing
1:03:07
around there's like lend me a pen and
1:03:19
the sign of that chief it's very important for us to get the emails it's a way for us to get the story out there
1:03:25
if they stay in touch with you I promised you we don't we don't we won't spam your mail I tend to not sign things
1:03:36
it could really know if you could do that especially the people so let's
1:03:42
start the question what's your name to solving them
1:03:56
a little bit but I guess I just wanted to know your opinion do you think if Israel were to end the occupation that
1:04:01
there would be a third intifada and not
1:04:13
okay in Yemen Eveline Eveline
1:05:01
so how do you how do you reconcile that
1:05:07
with such I've liked the nine-year-old girl that was shot two days ago with a
1:05:14
neck in his round others not an iota of personal responsibility or reflection where as for the Israeli army okay so
1:05:30
I'll just started with this and then we'll have to do two questions so either strong strong way though is
1:05:36
taking over a house for military purposes you can have different foremost
1:05:41
throw away those but basically using a house or using the house as a whole
1:05:49
right so the holder is Cindy in the village and that way you can use the house through the window we could
1:05:56
sometimes have snipers sometimes of people with binoculars but the people
1:06:03
you enter do not know you're coming right you can sometimes go get'em house that's
1:06:10
empty but many times there's people living there right so that's the reality that strong widows doing some places you
1:06:19
can stow it it would be six hours sometimes twelve hours sometimes it could be for a week
1:06:29
I'm not exactly sure how am I not or
1:06:36
suowei doe basically means someone who was not necessarily a winter were but I
1:06:41
think also in English but in Hebrew at least strongly though is with the work who doesn't know her husband's dead
1:06:47
they're alive I don't think that this was necessarily how they started using it they start talking about stakeouts
1:06:56
and then using this idea I heard some different ideas about it but it was
1:07:03
started that they started using it in the south of Lebanon the south of Lebanon in many places was in the
1:07:08
outskirts while the houses went moving during the Second Intifada
1:07:14
we're leaving southern Lebanon and spending most of the efforts in the West
1:07:20
Bank and what Israel refers to as the limited conflict we have to mean the
1:07:30
heart the vicinities let's do strong with those of course is people so Evelyn
1:07:39
and Sharona I think that the two
1:07:45
questions are connected gentlemen asked people trying to maybe keep our silence or or why this down and sure when
1:07:54
they're saying wait what silence are you talking about right I mean Christopher first of all Israelis are no not to keep
1:07:59
silence right but but you were saying you know if in the Knesset if in the
1:08:05
Knesset later is it so what silence so I
1:08:17
think I think in that sense like I said this was in 2004 when we started our
1:08:25
work and I think there was the right political atmosphere to allow us in and
1:08:31
I think that in that sense it is today much more difficult to break her silence than it was back back and since then we
1:08:39
had this will Lannister you influence the word tense the past laws but there
1:08:45
were attempts to pass laws to prevent us from working in many different ways either prevent our funding that were
1:08:53
orchestrated specifically for couple of organizations from the left and we have
1:08:59
the privilege to be one of them and they were and there were also people
1:09:06
Parliament members on the podium of the Parliament holding our material tearing
1:09:13
them and calling us traitors so in that sense it's not you know it's not that
1:09:19
we're in a place where we cannot speak right where we are actually silence you
1:09:25
work hard to have our voice heard but let's let's put things on the table we're mostly male old not only but
1:09:32
mostly male Jewish in Israel right we were barely soldiers we have the
1:09:40
privileges to come out and speak right and in that sense we can do this where a lot with a lot of people can and the
1:09:47
restrictions that we face are nothing parison the Palestinian activist and in
1:09:52
that sense we're not there yet we're in that sense were fighting for this
1:09:57
continuous of our democracy it's a struggle we're a minority voice in
1:10:03
Israel but we're not the only ones speaking out against this so there is a community which hopefully could grow and
1:10:10
we feel proud to be part of that one seeing this reality is opposed to it it's a minority inside the Israeli
1:10:17
society and there are many people that are trying to keep us silent many people
1:10:23
that are attacking us in many different ways but we're still in the stage where we can openly break our silence and you
1:10:32
know hopefully think that in that sense
1:10:44
one of what one of you know the reasons that we managed to get I didn't say this
1:10:53
but one of the organizations doing if you'd like alternative education that gets to the most amount of people per
1:10:59
year we take thousands of people on our tours we don't preach to the choir we
1:11:07
work very hard to get people who are not convinced in that sense we managed to
1:11:12
meet today the majority of the pre military academies which has a different
1:11:17
practicality in Israel but it's kids between high school and the army many
1:11:24
most of them a lot of students and even
1:11:30
every so often you know that's not our focus we're not trying to fix the army maybe the more moral army we understand
1:11:37
that you know and the immoral occupier we're also sometimes invited by the army
1:11:43
itself to speak right it's not some people focus our work on but they'll
1:11:49
also recognize our our ability to speak and m-step
1:11:54
Rhonda's many different groups working it was just an interview year ago by the Brigadier General that was leaving and
1:12:01
he differentiate between the anarchists and breaking the cycle so in that sense
1:12:06
way you know the anarchists are excellent people working on the ground from different groups if we know very well but it was easy for injury for the
1:12:13
diamonds and a person you know so in that sense we still have that ability to come out and speak and we did serve the
1:12:21
country for three years we did risk our lives before in the name of this if
1:12:27
we'll see the trend happening slowly but surely we're also our voice is also
1:12:33
being pushes we're still there but these laws and attacks I think is a trend I
1:12:48
don't know the question was occupation during I mean if you father I don't know
1:12:57
Jewish phrase that talks about prophecy was given to to the to the dumb
1:13:05
basically like I don't know I mean it's not something that I can say I don't know what what will happen
1:13:12
I would definitely hope that there will not be a violent third intifada
1:13:19
in that sense I think that it's definitely you know besides the
1:13:25
repercussions of beside the repercussions of that which we can try as a societies to prevent there's no
1:13:32
question around ending occupation in Afghanistan of control
1:13:38
and then we have to make sure that both sides will have their security no it's
1:13:50
not an option I think because I think
1:14:36
that the lecture gives a very narrow perspective which is very complex and
1:14:45
enough of context so a lot of the
1:14:56
stories happen during during evening
1:15:04
just I want to point out the second if I started after the peace talks between Israelis and the Palestinians fail let's
1:15:12
not get into whose fault were there but they fail and they launch in violence campaign
1:15:17
I remember if I was
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[Music]
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so okay other sandwiches I think a few questions and I'll get back to that so
1:16:03
it's so first of all your ally yeah yeah
1:16:12
your name so what's your name I listen carefully to what you said I
1:16:29
think that
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[Music]
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and we all see [Music]
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[Music]
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[Music]
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so thank you our enemy coming thank you for coming I think I said and I stand
1:18:47
behind this where we don't represent or say this differently like I said before
1:18:54
we're not in the heart of the Israeli consensus we definitely do not represent each and every soldier but I think in
1:19:01
both Auriemma means that what I would hope that you could appreciate here is
1:19:07
you know we could talk about what is the political outcome and who is responsible and what not I think one of the things
1:19:13
that is appreciated you know not only by you know people on the left side of the
1:19:20
political map but I encourage you to go see the gatekeepers you hear the heads
1:19:26
of the Secret Service one of them you buddies can was still the head of the Secret Service echoing exactly what we're talking about
1:19:32
and in that sense I think that we saw and we can have this political discussion of who we represent and what
1:19:39
it is we're trying to do and what is our goal but in that sense we have close to
1:19:45
a thousand soldiers right so you can say that they're all a minority but there are thousand people and I think they're a
1:19:52
tip of the iceberg and in that sense it doesn't matter what you think the political reality should be right there
1:19:59
how we should change it or who I should talk to which is a legitimate discussion like maybe you should think it's
1:20:06
legitimate to do it inside Israel with people who know what we're talking about that's a discussion but the core issue
1:20:11
what you cannot dispute is effect to a legitimate and in that sense what I
1:20:17
would hope that you could get engaged with is now that you see this is part of
1:20:23
a story this is part of the reality and maybe you didn't see it in your service right but I can promise you and come to
1:20:30
me later and we'll try to do this give me your unit in your year give me a week they'll send it to someone backbone
1:20:36
and we'll find someone from your unit for the testimony we can do them now I'm not saying this that was back and forth
1:20:43
what I'm saying there is a reality here that is not about pointing fingers it's
1:20:49
talking about responsibility and like I said there's violence on both sides but in the end of the day we're controlling
1:20:56
this reality and I think that what we're spending most of our time doing which by
1:21:02
the way I think most Israelis oppose but that's a different discussion but we're spending most of our times our efforts
1:21:08
on the ground promoting a campaign I don't know if you personally agree with but I think is doing horrible things to
1:21:14
my country and we could go into this discussion could be back back and forth and it's true I don't represent
1:21:21
thousands and thousands of Israeli soldiers but there was a survey after cast led that wasn't the University
1:21:29
where after the operation we published testimonials of the operation and there
1:21:36
was a survey that was passed between Israelis not put your finger break in the silence
1:21:42
not if you love them or if you think they're good keep it but do you believe their testimonies and 60 percent of
1:21:50
Israelis believe the testimony so if this is the reality let's not talk about
1:21:56
you know well you don't actually represent anyone but let's talk about the fact that this is
1:22:02
something that's happening you can think together about how to change re if I was
1:22:09
Prime Minister I think that the question
1:22:18
of Israel Israeli security is something that of course the Prime Minister is
1:22:23
something that we have to think about I think it's also a responsibility of anyone talking about this reality I
1:22:29
don't think that we can you know say you know there's no security threats and
1:22:36
just you know la-dee-da definitely not right but I think that when you look at
1:22:41
how we have came coming to this reality and everyone you know the occupation or
1:22:48
the drill fascinating comp is something we we Israelis eat than eat even drink in the morning with our coffee right
1:22:54
we're in this discussion no one can really ignore it in our society and I think this isn't something that is new
1:23:01
and I think in that sense and I'll you know quote again or quote from the
1:23:10
gatekeepers which longshadow Vermont mistaken talks about the fact that
1:23:16
Israel is working with tactics with no strategy and in that sense we're
1:23:23
reacting to reality right I think I know if you if you consider yourselves as
1:23:30
Zionists I don't know to consider consider yourself but if you look back in the history of the Zionist movement
1:23:37
the whole idea was wait let's see what is out there and tried to change a reality right and in that sense I
1:23:44
believe in my right to self-determination but I also believe Palestinians have a right to self-determination let's think
1:23:50
about that and when will manage that if that's the endgame if that's the goal I do believe and
1:23:56
maybe I'm naive that Palestinians hate us not only because we're Jewish and if
1:24:06
we think that's the case and they just hate us because we're Jewish then you know there's nothing we could do not
1:24:11
education and not extra curriculum and
1:24:17
whatnot but I believe in people and I believe in their system and I saw my friends changing in the system right and
1:24:24
I'm sure other people can also change
1:24:37
when when when you're asking for a provocative question which is ok it's ok
1:24:42
it's legitimate right but if you want the straightforward answer I'm not going to give it to you
1:24:48
it's not that it's not a straightforward situation of course this complacent but
1:24:53
in this complexity what I would hope and this is part of the reason that this is a discussion this is so fired up because
1:25:00
there's a gap today between our society and the rest of the world and this gap
1:25:06
is there because the rest of the world sees us and we see ourselves as well as a Western democracies and if we're less
1:25:15
than democracy there's some values we have to live up here and if there's values we have to live up to that's
1:25:21
something I want to do we could not continue to do that when we control people if your only solution for endings
1:25:28
for stopping suicide bombing is an on lasting of control over millions of
1:25:33
people you're a minority voice in Israel most Israelis want to change they don't have to do it but most Israelis want to
1:25:40
change some of them want a one-state there's other one a two-state but then that's it you're so um Laura my new
1:25:51
question that I can understand was relevant for change yeah we focused
1:25:59
break the silence focuses first and foremost in the Israeli society 60% of
1:26:07
our work is in the Israeli society that's what we're trying to influence person for most when looking for groups
1:26:14
who are relevant as well to this reality for example one of them which is very relevant is the Jewish American
1:26:20
community in the United States very relevant right so we're here on speaking tours and I was in a little houses and I
1:26:29
was in synagogues and I'm meeting with heads of different communities and religious schools here in New York and
1:26:34
I'm what you'd call professional Jews right people who work in the communities
1:26:41
different positions and we're trying to get this information I think it's also relevant for them how many times a year
1:26:47
do I come here maybe once a year we have the funding we spend most of our efforts in Israel with the Israeli society
1:26:54
trying to influence our society which was with enter to any tools we have and
1:26:59
we'll take people to the ground and have lectures we'll have talks with other exhibitions we will meet with opinion
1:27:05
makers we'll try to publish our stories what's greet the Pope to do in that sense is make sure that this discussion
1:27:11
is always there because where we are now it's either you're against it or you're with people not talking about this or
1:27:18
allowing this to continue people saying let's not talk about the occupation let's talk about cherry tomatoes and
1:27:25
miss Funky's and that Israel is startup nation are actually helping the
1:27:32
situation to continue because there are good things about this real that's why I want to stay there I love my country
1:27:38
right but if I'm thinking about this real if I'm thinking about anyone who is close to me a family member a brother if
1:27:46
my younger brother was 17 we'll do something extremely stupid and now just stand there and say well I don't want to
1:27:53
criticize them I'm a bad brother and I see this reality which we have put in
1:27:58
ourselves into throughout the years right then there were ways out along the
1:28:04
way I'm not saying there's no responsibility and other sides but we are controlling this reality and in that
1:28:10
sense I was an Israeli soldier I was born and raised in this room I pay my
1:28:16
taxes so there's really society and that's where my responsibility is to change I don't know if we can say that
1:28:23
we are extremely successful because what our goal is to is to fit which is very
1:28:28
clearest and occupation but we you know there are changes that we could see on
1:28:34
the ground what they're changing because of our discussions maybe later
1:28:39
I've been talk to them few about them if you'd be interested so let's think if
1:28:45
you were doing this behind so yeah I
1:28:51
have a question for you you just said that your brother if you decided whether doing something stupid you say I
1:29:02
wouldn't read a good book consists of testimonies given by soldiers I'm not
1:29:08
familiar with the book unfortunately think thinks it's phenomenal like this
1:29:14
one but what kind of aggravates me is the description that you gave in the book there are fifty soldiers who
1:29:20
actually women stole things acts of vandalism whatever it is
1:29:25
where are the commanders in that situation and I asked them because a minister for
1:29:32
a couple years great news and I think that it would talk me a long time to
1:29:38
understand what it means to be in charge of people especially these people
1:29:43
sometimes like myself it was not mature enough to understand at first then
1:29:49
actually dealing with them with other Souls and it's important to be very and
1:29:55
I was wondering if you actually found these commanders ask you these descriptions that you hadn't actually I'm not saying a little countable for
1:30:02
the vandalism that their leaders did but do you have testimonies of
1:30:08
and if you don't are you thinking about write a new book pissing on these
1:30:14
written by commanders will answer you
1:30:27
more afterwards well we have a dozens and dozens of officers some of them is very high positions as well I mean
1:30:33
they're not don't have generals but six seven years into the army hi my name is
1:30:44
Janine and while we're sharing our credentials my family lives in Nablus in
1:30:49
the occupied West Bank so if anybody wants to know what it's like to be a Palestinian living in the West Bank I
1:30:54
encourage you to talk to me or to actually find out online because there are two sides to the story
1:31:00
so my question to you is if every Israeli citizen has to go into the army
1:31:05
or the Border Patrol's or something like that so I find it hard to believe that they don't know what's happening but
1:31:12
rather it's that they don't care because we feed the dissolve I mean security is something necessary to keep us safe
1:31:18
so my question to you is what do you say when you go to other Israelis and talk to them about this a that I share what
1:31:40
it's like the story told probably true because I've heard very stories similar to that but I think that there's a whole
1:31:48
lot of other stuff and that you mentioned you you said that this is not
1:31:58
just a matter of like four knuckles of a few stories of a few instances and you
1:32:03
seem to be quite proud of the 800 testimonies and 60 soldiers that went
1:32:10
all together to testify to silence in
1:32:16
these regularly there are one hundred seventy six thousand soldiers serving and almost 500,000 in reserves okay so
1:32:34
compared to this number I mean the count numbers that you're bringing to the table are like buying back you and by
1:32:42
the way how the correction to what is that before I come to yourself BBC News the number of Palestinians
1:32:48
killed between 2000 and 2005 work 3133
1:32:54
just a smaller month before you answer oh man it's important to mention that uh correct me if I'm wrong you didn't serve
1:33:00
in the army as a student
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[Music]
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[Music]
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[Music]
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that's okay so let's
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[Music] it's organized and I want to say since
1:35:14
we're all Prudential
1:35:37
I'm a New Yorker I promise
1:36:17
and here last year in the Walker's book however I want to ask is how do you
1:36:25
respond to people who criticize you specifically for speaking not only to
1:36:31
Israelis but
1:36:38
okay so just not done so like I said in
1:36:49
our and our testimonies there dozens of officers and I think you know one of the
1:36:54
things that you know I talked a lot a lot it here you were an electorate you
1:37:01
talked a lot about systemic when you talk about tools after humans in
1:37:08
different scenarios and in that sense when we talk about I think the important
1:37:15
thing to understand is you know we're talking about things coming from both from the highest chain of command now I
1:37:21
could have a lecture which is a possibility and I chose not to do it and I usually choose not to do it they have
1:37:27
a whole lecture about the IDF ownership and there were things that were maybe
1:37:34
not easy to hear there were red one testimony about that but most of what I
1:37:39
was talking about is the system and in that sense one of the what were the
1:37:45
things I close up at the end is when the soldiers were born has written in this post the shabby chic classy be rational
1:37:53
or something openness to it disrupt the day-to-day life with the same population he didn't write it with the pen document
1:38:00
the officer comes from very high up one of the is a very interesting book written by shallow Lafayette II who was
1:38:06
a very high ranking officer partly for the person that the plan is separation barrier and that spouses a human rights
1:38:13
attorney and it's called for mom and I which is funny to Israelis in kind of in
1:38:19
start explaining in English but it's basically a book about the separation barrier and one of the interesting
1:38:24
stories he he he gives in the books is the s shovel as a was Israeli Prime
1:38:32
Minister's driving up from Jews during the beginning write to me and the same fella start them in 2000 but it was
1:38:39
a while till people realize but this is thank you Father you know and by the way
1:38:45
I recommend to see and when we call the million bullets in october which i think is very interesting but with this uh
1:38:52
with with he flew up in the helicopter but that much awards the regional
1:38:57
battalion from morning samaria and he gets there and the first thing he says
1:39:03
when he gets to the brigadier General's office when he also on was a pretty skinny guy and he comes me knocks him
1:39:10
and the table and he says why are there Palestinian cars driving on route 60 which sixty is the route that crosses
1:39:17
the West Bank from north to south and Brigadier officer says give me the
1:39:25
orders and we'll make it happen you know you can't just do it and now the answer one says what do you mean have your
1:39:32
soldiers forgotten out to rip tires how to take spark plugs now the first exhibition of breaking the
1:39:41
silence there was a whole wall full of a car full of car keys right there was one
1:39:46
unit in one place at one time we confiscated car keys confiscated IEDs
1:39:52
and read it comes up over and over when you talk about this reality which by the
1:39:57
way and this is what this is where we're coming and saying you know when we're expecting we're expecting the Israeli
1:40:04
army to continue this reality because that's the political analogy then this is what it looks like you can't control
1:40:11
people in different way you'll all I think you'll always have these realities of what does you know that and emulation
1:40:18
beating up but I think much more interesting and much more disruptive for for the Palestinian susceptible
1:40:24
population is not that the thing was slapped on his face it stings for a while and then it passes right and it's
1:40:29
humiliating the venom passes what what's much more the struck destructive is 1,800 stores advert that
1:40:36
are closing down in the have run that we talked about 72 percent unemployment in the biggest Palestinian
1:40:42
city in the West man that's women in their fifth month of pregnancy or denied access to an ambulance this or these are
1:40:49
not decisions of 18 19 year-olds this has been going on since 2000 everyone
1:40:54
knows about it documentaries movies videos it's not news even in Israel anymore and it's
1:41:02
true that the only thing that manages to break our surface inside our society
1:41:07
which I'm spending so much time trying to go since the regionality recharge from this time at least often there's an
1:41:12
incident of you know the man you know like it an apology it was a border
1:41:20
police soldier that took pictures with a Palestinian was handcuffed and she posted on Facebook wrote the best time
1:41:25
of my life now he said oh my god this is horrible at the time what the discussion became it said an apology she's the
1:41:32
problem she's the issue we published 30 pictures or exactly the same taking picture
1:41:38
that's the dead bodies they can picture some people with pretty high-ranking
1:41:43
officers as well so in that sense the thing is it's only about the markers
1:41:49
that you stole right or you know doing something out of it it's bigger than its
1:41:55
bigger than that because we're talking about a system that controls people by force will always happen i Jimmy it's
1:42:02
one of the questions we get a lot I'm happy you asked it because I think one of the biggest misconceptions about the
1:42:08
Israeli society if everyone goes everyone knows right but look at the numbers today right we're talking about
1:42:15
between 60% of girls women and 40% of men going to the army already today
1:42:22
ultra-orthodox Jews Palestinians Israelis religious girls in the
1:42:28
religious Zionist community they do community services don't join the army people that you know get milk for health
1:42:34
reasons and people that get offer conscientious objectors which is a very
1:42:40
small minor amounts of the people but today already already close to 50
1:42:47
percent of Israelis don't even serve but when we think about who serves in the army let's think about armies around the
1:42:53
world how many of the American army how many souls American are married today in Iraq and Afghanistan most are not the background only nine to
1:43:01
ten percent of Israeli soldiers serve in the West Bank because it's an army and there's other things to do and there's a
1:43:07
North border in South border and these people invest jobs and these people in other positions right then there's
1:43:13
people in the Navy who net sometimes could not even go close to the areas that are relevant to what we're talking
1:43:19
about so in that sense I think it is fair to say that most people do not know what this happening on the ground but
1:43:25
everyone thinks they know now my dad served was a great dine alone served as
1:43:33
a paratrooper in 73 it is reserved to detail end of a right so he last time he
1:43:42
was the bear was a different reality totally different reality I mean I'm also reserve duty was in Lebanon and I
1:43:50
remember when I came to my my dad and told him the silent it wasn't an easy
1:43:55
thing for them originally it wasn't easy to accept that especially we were
1:44:01
criticizing and I remember that one of the dinners
1:44:08
family dinner table my wife said talked
1:44:16
with her dad about it and I thought with me first from externalization I talked
1:44:21
about testimonies I talked about story services they say then I started telling my stories and when I start talking
1:44:30
about my stories he he turns around basically and says you didn't do this
1:44:35
because how difficult is it to see your child to see your friend your son your
1:44:41
brother do horrible things right and in that sense it's extremely difficult
1:44:47
thing what we're doing we fund it we think it's important we're picking up a merit of Israeli society and it's an
1:44:53
ugly picture it's an ugly reflection when you have a very ugly face eventually you'll stop looking in the
1:45:00
mirror you'll take down every mirror in the house what we can hope to do is put
1:45:05
in there is make sure there's a discussion is make sure people know that this is going on now when we're sitting
1:45:13
here some people this is going on now when people are living their lives you
1:45:18
know in that sense we could hope to do that I think by the way since since the
1:45:26
Second Intifada for reasons I can understand I mean we're talking about just correct what they said since the
1:45:34
end of the Second Intifada they were six thousand Palestinians killed in a thousand railings so we're
1:45:40
talking about this time this has been a trauma both for Israelis after
1:45:45
Palestinians this is a trauma and the decision to cut off right this decision
1:45:51
it's something that is understandable but we don't have the privilege to do
1:45:57
that it's in our benefit to say you know let's just talk about this let's change
1:46:02
this but we can't change it before we really know this is happening to bring thousands of Israelis thousands of
1:46:09
Israelis it's just amazing how surprised there are when they come to the room because even Israelis who see themselves
1:46:15
on the Left don't want to go that of wrong it's not the fun place to be you
1:46:22
know it leaves you with a difficult feeling anything this normally takes days
1:46:27
[Music]
1:46:38
so Mariana I was great from the silence organized so really started out just you
1:46:45
know the hit Amanda grassroots just trying to the beginning the 60 guys put
1:46:51
together their money from the Army Service and boss scooter and you know who took you went around on the scooter
1:46:56
from house to house and broke things down in the notebook but we have evolved as an organization we have today a
1:47:03
department that's in charge of gathering testimonies there's two people in the department and we do a lot of the blog
1:47:12
absorb it a lot of between the both of them they need close to hundred and twenty soldiers a year that's our
1:47:19
capacity it's true the V but there are many more soldiers serving that's our
1:47:24
capacity to get to and it's also fair to say most people for many different reasons I'm going to agree with us
1:47:30
politically someone I put it behind them something that isn't relevant don't come
1:47:35
and give their testimony but there's definitely that's what you try to do and we try to be as relevant as possible to
1:47:41
what is happening we just actually decided recently that we'll start gathering testimonies not from soldiers
1:47:47
who served since 2000 but sir looters for since 2005 because we tried to keep
1:47:52
the things updated and there's things to talk about the reality is definitely there we I
1:47:58
served after the Second Intifada by the Second Intifada in 2004 2005 I
1:48:04
totally took end of 2007 right there's testimonies here until 2010 and we just
1:48:12
revealed testimonial unless that's year so in that sense this reality is not going to end it will
1:48:18
change and you read the different testimonies they look different because it was a different time and that's of
1:48:25
course something we're aware of but this reality of control will always bring up in testimonies there's no way around it
1:48:38
so they were so I'm glad one of my testimonies in here but I wasn't one of
1:48:43
the editors group about four guys with all those cofounders of the organization
1:48:49
that came together and started reading through the testimony the interesting thing we talked about this in our discussion before that these terms these
1:48:57
four pillars are terms that most Israeli soldiers know I mean these are not new I mean you get orders in two bases you
1:49:04
have to prevent error miss Akira fathe right people table make oh you're in it
1:49:10
you have to separate it Regis's practical things that you actually do on
1:49:15
the ground you have to maintain the fabric of life right so in that sense
1:49:22
these are all things that we knew right so we took them from this toolbox and tried to translate that so that was the
1:49:29
easy part finding and connecting the dots and making sure that the testimonies all that that was difficult
1:49:36
writing in each chapter we have just like I said the first time we did the
1:49:41
analysis each chapter has an explanation about it so we actually have a whole
1:49:50
description about what moved up through this book but also each chapter on its
1:49:55
own explains what we mean basically what I try to explain so the focus is pretty thick but it's a pretty easy read not
1:50:02
the fun one but a pretty easy read you can actually read all the at the most graphics all the traffic sis
1:50:12
of the chapters pretty quickly and then the testimonials you know if you get the
1:50:21
book don't be too many of them but we'll just give you a better understanding of what it is we're talking about
1:50:42
so again I think you know like I like I said the question is who has the right to know I get 50% of Israelis today
1:50:48
don't serve already right their job correctly Jew ultra-orthodox a Jew who
1:50:53
lives in Mashhad England doesn't serve in the army right does he have more right to know than you know I don't know
1:51:02
maybe someone someone in your family that donates $10,000 a year divided yet
1:51:09
okay and that's an interesting discussion of the limits of democracy right the end of the day we spend most
1:51:15
of our energy in Isreal but one of the things we realized that if we want to be relevant the change of political reality
1:51:21
not only keep our silent we have to get this information out there to whoever is willing to hear and in that sense the
1:51:28
people who are trying to keep the status for doing exactly the same I mean look at different lobby groups here in the US
1:51:34
look at different organizations on campus I mean in that sense they're trying to maintain this that status quo
1:51:39
that is so dangerous for us I think there's also something to be said about
1:51:45
today in our world if I can sign a petition against Dolph Dolph among
1:51:51
things in Japan I think you as American citizens which are connected to this
1:51:57
reality mean I walked around with the gun that said cult property of the USA government for three years right so I
1:52:03
want this the support to continue with one of the things I would expect is you
1:52:09
know writing the checks if you want one not but also ask questions right if you
1:52:15
want if you have if we before we share these values and that's what connects us we have similar values and there's also
1:52:21
things that don't that we're doing that do not live up to your values and let's have a discussion about that and I'll
1:52:26
say something Julia about the Jewish community which i think is very relevant and it's something that I
1:52:33
work people I work with very closely throughout my year that's most of the groups I meet in Israel's and I just met
1:52:40
with with a friend before I left American Jew who I think Pope you know
1:52:45
gave me this amazing line which i think is this so true there's a fear in the
1:52:50
breasts of Jewish community communities inside in the States today let's not let
1:52:56
our kids engage in this Ramona because many of you they won't be able to deal with what's happening there and there
1:53:02
were cases of people pushing away I know people who were involved in this and I didn't want anything to do with this
1:53:08
room and what he told me which I think was was fascinating this is where I'm trying to fall back to you guys is the
1:53:15
reason he was so furious was not because what he saw there was you know I'm the
1:53:21
you know so crazy and so bad and you know he's an intelligent guy he knows
1:53:28
what's happening around the world but in that sense what the strongest thing that
1:53:34
he felt was that he was lied to all his life about what this real is and in that
1:53:41
sense there's amazing sites in Israel right like every person individual would
1:53:46
group of body but there's also ugly such and if you truly want to be supporters
1:53:51
of this be truly want to show a real love for this place that we cannot disregard these other points and I think
1:53:58
the responsibility of for sure diaspora Jews but I think worldwide I
1:54:04
mean this is for many years now not only an internal Israeli conflict you know
1:54:10
people say you're airing our dirty laundry there's millions of Palestinians there they're not relevant how could
1:54:16
this be my gravy laundry there's no people live but there's so much money effort you know time spent in this from
1:54:23
the international community and what I would hope that there would be a better understanding of what is happening there
1:54:29
but that discussion start there we can be very helpful in helping those conversation starts start I'm not here
1:54:36
the entire year you know I'm going back in a week and a half that I work in Israel we can hope that you guys you
1:54:44
don't but you do yeah yo-yo could actually take this information and start
1:54:49
this discussion and take it head-on you know do it with Ari and with them Ethan with the V then that time and you know
1:54:56
do it right because it's an important discussion but we have to recognize that this is part of the reality and I'll
1:55:02
just end with with that I'm sure we're out of time New York yeah no my question
1:55:09
thank you for your time this evening thanks for everybody for sticking around my question has to do with in the Israeli domestic political environment
1:55:16
that on an electoral level is really called it says really become atomized and given the opinions even in this room
1:55:22
there I say that I'm not wrong about that my question is how do how does the peace process how to do informal efforts
1:55:28
like yours overcome that political atomization or do you have to overcome it is there a way to work within that
1:55:33
thank you thank you that's a great question and I know if I have a very
1:55:39
good answer but I think one of the problems that we have in our in our
1:55:45
society I would say in the camp in Israel is is trying to change this reality is that we're content with
1:55:53
trying to do whatever we can to push the people in the room to our direction
1:55:59
right if it's now and now we're now an evening we'll try to push them and scream as loud as we can in there here
1:56:05
you know doing this in fact the problem is this is something that we I don't
1:56:11
know why this is happening but that we think that they're not you know if you look at the
1:56:18
finale's views if you look at people in his in his coalition a finger Lieberman
1:56:23
who was used to be the the Minister of Foreign Affairs said in the UN two years ago we have to stop talking the fact
1:56:30
about conflict resolution and start talking about conflict management right so and you know in that sense if you
1:56:37
hear the voices from the coalition today he's moderate you know there's people calling there so in that sense what I
1:56:45
think we can try to do is not scream the loudest in someone's ear when first of
1:56:51
all we know they're definitely right here and in other year there's hundreds of people screaming another year we have
1:56:56
to start thinking about changing the people in the room but the premises and again it's not that the Labour Party
1:57:03
didn't help build the settlements as well let's put that you know but what we can try to do is build a community
1:57:09
inside Israel as big as possible but will say we have to first and foremost endless and by the way I don't think
1:57:16
this is something that will only end by Israelis there are focus group there who were trying to push the most but this of
1:57:22
course relevant to the Palestinians and how they'll play their card this is a course relevant to the United States
1:57:28
this of course relevant to Europe right so in that sense we can hope to be part of a group part of a voice together with
1:57:35
partners with friends with allies that are also seeking a change in this
1:57:41
reality to do it together I'll just end with how you can help us first thing you
1:57:49
can all do I know some of you are students and buying a boat is always so easy what you can all do is go on our
1:57:57
website and like us on Facebook like us on our website follow us on Twitter share this event with other
1:58:05
people it's extremely important to get out there on our website after you after you like this in Facebook or on your
1:58:12
website under media organization media so the 30 minutes video about your own
1:58:18
watch it it's very good think of five people that will hate it send it to them
1:58:25
they provide a moment and will find it very interesting send it to them right we can hope to start this discussion you
1:58:32
can help us to do that if you would be interested in purchasing a copy of the book there $15 for students there 20 if
1:58:39
you're not it could extremely help us especially me I won't have to carry them Pittsburgh tomorrow we're doing this
1:58:47
entire tour on donations if you could help us out a little bit that will always be helpful thank you so much for
1:58:54
your time
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