#63 – Remco Breuker on the history of the Koryo dynasty (918-1392) and its pluralistic nature
Korea and the World
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==
Remco Breuker
Remco Breuker | |
|---|---|
 | |
| Born | 1972 |
| Education | |
Remco Erik Breuker (born 1972) is a Dutch historian, author, academic, and translator specializing in Korea and Northeast Asia, focusing on medieval Korean and Northeast Asian history and contemporary North Korean affairs.[1][2] He is currently a professor of Korean studies at Leiden University.
Biography
[edit]In 2011, Breuker was promoted to full professor of Korean studies at Leiden University.[1] Outside academia, Breuker works translating Korean literature into Dutch.[3] He is also a regular media commentator on Korean affairs in the Netherlands.[4]
Education
[edit]Breuker possesses master's degrees in Japanese studies and Korean studies, and a doctorate in Korean history from Leiden University.[1]
Selected bibliography
[edit]- Remco Breuker. (2023). De Koreaanse golf [The Korean Gulf]. Amsterdam: Prometheus.
- Remco Breuker. (2018). De B.V. Noord-Korea: Een kernmacht in de marge. [North Korea, Inc.: A nuclear power in the margins]. Amsterdam: Prometheus.
Translated works
- Jang Jin-sung. (2014). Over de grens: Mijn ontsnapping uit Noord-Korea [Over the border: My escape from North Korea]. Amsterdam: De Arbeiderspers.
References
[edit]- ^ a b c "Remco Breuker". Leiden University. Retrieved 13 July 2023.
- ^ "Remco Breuker". De Correspondent (in Dutch). Retrieved 13 July 2023.
- ^ "Remco Breuker". Leiden Asia Centre. Retrieved 13 July 2023.
- ^ Liesbeth Wytzes (26 June 2023). "Remco Breuker: 'Prestige heeft niets te zoeken aan een universiteit'". EW (in Dutch). Retrieved 13 July 2023.
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While Europe experienced the Middle Ages and the Crusades, the Korean peninsula was ruled by the Koryo dynasty, from 918 to 1392 AD. To learn more about the period and its heritage, we spoke to Professor Remco Breuker about its political system and society as well as the period’s pluralistic nature.
For more information about the episode, visit our website: http://www.koreaandtheworld.org/remco...
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Remco Breuker
Dutch historian, author, academic
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===
Introduction
welcome to Korea and the world a podcast on political economic and social issues
from the perspective of the Korean Peninsula while Europe experienced the Middle Ages and waged War in the
Crusades the Korean Peninsula was ruled by the Coro Dynasty which lasted from
9918 to 1392 this era is remembered for the unification of the previous three Korean
kingdoms its Pottery Buddhist wood carvings and movable type technology yet
there is comparatively little popular knowledge about this spirit's political system and Society to learn more about
the Coro Dynasty we had the privilege of meeting with Professor Remco broker who
discussed with us some of the Dynasty's characteristics and especially its pluralistic nature Professor Brooker is
Professor of Korean studies at Leen University in the Netherlands he obtained his PhD from the same
University and Pur Ed Graduate Studies there as well as at Soul National
University he has published on Korean history in various academic journals translated various modern and historic
texts from Korean and is the author of establishing a pluralist society in medieval Korea history ideology and
identity in the Korea Dynasty which was published in 2010 Professor Remco Brer welcome to
How did you become interested in Korean Studies
Korea and the world thank you it's a pleasure to be able to talk to you how did you become interested in Korean
studies and why did you decide to research CIO Korea well as for many
people I think of of my generation I got interested in Korea through another country the year when I arrived in
leaden Korean studies were still very small I think it had been established as an independent Department only the year
before to be honest I arrived and I did Japanese studies and while doing so I
became interested in Korea because I realized um quite quickly also helped by
the atmosphere here in the department that in order to understand Japanese history you really need to know
something about Korean history so I decided to take a look at the Korean studies department and um never left I'm
still there so that that's that's basically it I think um if you want to understand Japanese history Chinese
history you need to know about Korea and Korea was always the the country that was left out for a long time it has
changed I mean dramatically I mean these days no one would think of doing anything with East Asia without looking
at Korea but only 10 or 15 years ago and especially when I started 25 years ago it was actually the norm to leave out
Korea as for codo there's something very similar there I think because the codal dynasty although it lasted almost 500
years has always been an under researched topic unfortunately there are good reasons for that biggest reason
being that the amount of sources we have for codo is severely limited it's in no way comparable to what we have for joson
which also lasted 500 years and I was intrigued by um the few articles in
English I couldn't read Korean at that time I think I read about codo painted a very different picture of what
historical Korea was was like very different from Choson so it sparked my interest and that's why I am started
studying um codo history so we want to talk about codo today for those
What is Korea
unfamiliar with Curran history could you give us the three sentence definition of what codo is the three sentence
definition of what codo is you're not making it easy for me a very long lived
very diverse extremely crucial period in Korean history in which we saw things
that we've never seen before never seen after I think coming together of many different Notions ideas and beliefs and
peoples also that have exercised I think an enormous influence on whatever came
after that's probably a very bad three sentence definition but yeah that's all I can come up with now to provide some
context for our Western listeners the foundation of the Coro Dynasty coincided
with the Zenith of the Byzantine Empire it spawned a period that includes the Crusades the Mongol invasion of Europe
it is the same era as the one described in the legend of Robin Hood and in books such as canalot Pillars of the Earth
should we imagine the Cora Dynasty therefore as theore equivalent to the high Middle Ages in Europe that's a very
good question um and it's it's not one I can easily answer but there are two things to that one is providing codo the
codo period with some contemporary background noting that it was flourishing at the same time as the
Byzantine Empire was that Robin Hood was robbing the woods of Nottingham Forest while um the codio rulers were in power
that's I think very necessary and is often not done to the extent that while you were mentioning this I was thinking
oh what yeah he's right of course that's true um but even someone who works on codo like me doesn't do that enough I
think we don't do it enough we don't position Korean history in general enough in in global history and that's a
Pity I think we should because it makes much more things clear and especially for codo um we seem to have the notion
that somehow it was a well not a herit kingdom probably but more or less
isolated somewhere in the Northeast end of the world in fact it probably wasn't
and if you look at archaeological discoveries it becomes more and more clear that codal in fact traded with
large parts of the world with Arab Nations well that that has been known for some time but Central Asia um
southeast Asia e East Asia of course Russia perhaps even Europe um in in that
sense it makes perfect sense to compare it to its colleagues as it were in in Europe but also outside of Europe um on
the other hand whether it's I'm not sure whether it is the Korean equivalent of the European Middle Ages um one it may
be structurally there are similarities yes but the problem that I keep running into that's something which anyone who
works on Korea and Korean history runs into all the time is the application of
foreign Concepts to Korean history and trying to bend Korean history to fit those preconceived frames and you have
to be careful about with that I think ironically I think the cordio history may well be described in very similar
terms to the European Middle Ages but that's more of a coincidence because it has been this notion has been abused in
the past so many times um starting for example with the Marxist historians who learned as many things but they also
kind of distorted our views of History um trying to fit Korean patterns of
development into Marxist patterns of development that's not not going to work
look at North Korean historiography which um if anything is a legitimation for the regime there's not much real
history there historiography I should say um even taking into account what that historiography may very well be
wrong I mean I whatever I say may very well be wrong but I hope it's at least it's an attempt to truly clear up some
of the things we don't know arrive at a better understanding having said that yes um I think there is a very good
structural comparison to be made between the European Middle Ages and codo the codo period although I should probably
limit that to um before the Mongol invas because then things radically and really radically dramatically change
Remnants of the Koryo dynasty
for someone who might travel to Korea today is the Goro era still visible and if so where are there any artifacts or
structures that represent the Korea Dynasty today um if you travel to South Korea you're going to be disappointed
there's not much left um it's a story I always tell my students my um ma thesis
in here in leaden um was written about the Mongol invasions of Korea and I had heard that the Palaces of the codo ruler
when once they move the capital to Kad Island um near Soul um we're still there
so um on this day March 1st I went there which was a very stupid mistake I'll
never make it again don't try to leave s on March 1st it was crowded of course and 60 kilms it took me six hours to get
there in a bus and I I'm way too tall for buses like that I couldn't sit down I couldn't stand it was quite a
difficult journey and I I finally arrived and um went to the the place where the um fellas of the king uh was
said to be and I went there and I didn't see anything I Saw Grass I saw a few foundational Stones that's it that was
the codio period in and around Soul now if you go to um the national museum
you'll they'll have pagodas real and they rebuilt them but they are the original ones they'll have many codo
artifacts but in South Korea itself there's not much left codo Dynasty built with wood which is exquisitly beautiful
but it also is not very resistant to fires or War and the Korean peninsula of course has had had it share of wars and
Devastation everything so there are just a few buildings in South Korea which are really undoubtedly from the codo period
usually there are temples like the sudo are in the southeast of South Korea on
the other hand if you go to North Korea and have to admit I've never been there and I can't go apparently this the north koreen government is not very happy with
me the capital of codo Kong is of course still there there are efforts are being
made to preserve as much as we can well we well not me but from Kong or kyong as
it used to be called or songyong and there there there's much there and it's not just there it's it's I presume that
there must be many more artifacts and buildings in North Korea than there than there are now in South Korea although of
course the war also struck there but still um kyong and surroundings there are really much to be found there
especially archaeologically yeah if you go to South Korea just read books watch TV dramas there's not much left when we
What was Koryo
talk about codo what do we actually talk about what was codo that seems like a
very easy answered question but in fact it isn't was one of the things I found
out although not all my colleagues agree I I have to admit and which really surprised me is that in all the extent
codo documents I've seen the name codo is never used codo of course the the state was called codo there's no doubt
about that if you look at official correspondence with foreign States for example or if you look at inscriptions
official inscriptions in in stone it talks about the cordio state that's definitely true but it seems like as if
this name wasn't very popular among the people itself and even even its uh rulers uh not just the highest ruler the
king or the emperor the son of Heaven all three I guess but also the Literati the intellectuals the the officials
sometimes they use the name Cordo but more often they would use the name saman the three Han which is interesting
because it's one of the first I think suggestions that codo had a um pluralistic or plural historical lineage
it traced back his An ancestry along three different lines of the three Han and it also points to the fact that
there was a population which identified itself with itself as something which
had existed historically but which existed before the codio state and society and would continue to exist
after the codio state had perished and this comes very close to the notion I think of what we today call a nation
something which is often the same as the state but at the same time it isn't by saying this I think conservative
estimate 80% of my colleagues would disagree especially those who do study modern Korea but still I think I think
there's there's a good argument to be made that codo was the first nation the first coming into being of of the
community or two communities of Korea the Contemporary koreas so when we talk
about cordio that's I think what we talk about the first coming together of a community with um a very diverse very
rich and very not unified history which slowly crystallized into a a separate
identity and an identity that was lost also even though I do think the historical continuity between codo and
Choson is very strong and in many areas for 50 or 100 years after the founding
of chosen Dynasty you can't really tell whether it's Cod or chosen you're looking at at the same time that really
distinct codo identity I think was lost but it was lost already during the codio state the late codio period probably
it's very difficult really to talk about codo because I never know what I'm talking about when I talk about codo so
I try to use different terms saman which reflects the nation which is a very self-reflective term also and codo is
really the state the vehicle that deals with the tax collection for example with with the foreign states with things like
that things a state needs to do with the military how did the name codo come
How did the name Koryo come about
about well that at least is a fairly clear story I think the name codo is basically it's it's abbreviation of Kudo
the older State on the Korean Peninsula one of the Three Kingdoms Korean Manchurian Kingdom probably can't say
that but it's not purely Korean it's a Korean mansurian and kodo has always been seen as the successor state to Kio
because they so obviously took its name well they did and there's no denying that but as is reflected in the name
they didn't just succeed to kogo they also succeeded to peka and to to Sheila
but the thing was at the time of the founding of the Cordo Dynasty whether it was done by Kung or by wangon could very
well be that the real um founder of the cordal Dynasty uh Was Kung although wangon is the person who really of
course um made it what it what it would become later but that founder was faced
really with a very simple Choice there was at that period a um a new state
called later pcture the Sheila state was still it was weak much smaller than it used to be but was still there Sheila so
what are you going to do there's only one state you can identify with and that's Kio which is why they chose the
name codo I think and also if you look in Chinese sources nine out of that's probably too much seven out of 10 times
I think Kio is not written as kodo but it's written as codo so it must have been a fairly normal and well-known name
and made sense because the codio state of the 10th Century came into being in the north of the peninsula which is
exactly the place where um Kio used to rule as had peka and as had Sheila but
let's just disregard that for the moment was the territory ruled over by the Coro
territorial stability
State similar to the one that is now covered by the two Korean states on the peninsula that's a very interesting
question and um when I set out um with the research for my for my PhD I was quite sure that the notion that Korean
territory that the borders of what is now or what should be now unified Korea what are the two koreas now basically
that that was a nationalist invention that the notion that those borders had been stable for at least 500 years uh I
wasn't sure whether I believed it I thought it was nationalist interpretation of history but when I looked into it I found that indeed the
Nationalist historians had been wrong that it wasn't true that those borders had been stable for 500 years as far as
I can determine they have been pretty much stable for almost a thousand years years which is quite remarkable and I
have to admit that you have to make a difference between the area the cordio state claim to rule and that it actually
could always rule in the north hongo part of that what is now North Korea was
not always under its Direct Control because the Jin were there um famous for many things but one of the things they
were really famous for is that the fact that they didn't really like to be ruled by anyone but the codos had claimed it
and no one else did the more more important thing is I think in the historical imagination of Scholars of
people this is the traditional Korean territory and that's that's almost
onetoone correspondence with if you would put North and South Korea together today and interestingly you see all you
see this also during the chosen period for example in the songs of shamans in which they sing about the Korean
territory sometimes they even use the the same kind of old-fashioned provinces as in the codio period in early chosen
so the notion of territorial stability is really welld developed on the Kore Peninsula and and on the one hand the
Nationalist historians I I thought I disagree with were wrong but only because they were too conservative I I
think you can make a case that the present Korean uh territory if we speak of a unified Korea put South and North
Korea together is very similar to codo uh once it had stabilized its borders
territorial expansion
were there ever discussions of territorial expansion yes there were but
not as much as I thought it would be and as far as I've been able to determine those discussions were mainly strategic
at least the discussions by serious people who U were serious administrators um military leaders people who knew what
was going to happen what will happen if you take an army into unknown territory that's not easy and so in in that sense
real serious discussion about territorial expansion beyond the borders
of what we see as traditional Korea almost nothing with one big exception
the exception of Mong the rebellious monk if he was a monk giom mener ritual
specialist I think I called him who was sure that if codo wanted it they could it could conquer the the Jin the Juran
Dynasty the thing is neither he nor any of his supporters as far as I've been able to determine had ever been abroad
they really didn't know what they were talking about so then it's easy to talk about war they'd never been in Wars it's
easy to talk about vanquishing the Jin armies because they' never actually seen any J armies but apart from those people
apart from Yong apart from that very to a certain extent anomalous period in cordio history although I probably have
to be careful with saying this because it's also a treasured part of cordio history from for many Koreans no cordial
wasn't an expansionist state which isn't to say they were inward-looking they were definitely outward looking but they
were much smarter than just focusing on territorial expansion if codo expanded
and it did I think it expanded through trade it expanded because it ruled the
sea not during its the entirety of its existence but the EC and also the Yellow
Sea were pretty much the territory of of codo based Merchants who um also had um
established Outpost in China from where they they conducted their trade so I I think it makes much much more sense to
see codio expansion in those terms not in terms of territorial expansion that
on the one hand that's it's horribly oldfashioned and it's at the same time very contemporary because it reflects
our contemporary preoccupation with drawing the exact boundary between two states and um as you know that's
something that really occupies the South Korean government now where is the border what what is ours and what isn't
but it would not do I think projecting that onto the codo period what preceded the codo Dynasty and in what way was the
Goro Dynasty different from dynasties that came before great question um I could think of a number of ways to try
and answer this first of all um if you want to um stick to the definition of a
dynasty is the ruling house uh so the ruling house is is different from from the Sheila ruling House of unified
Sheila it's usually called in the sense that the Sheila rulers were supposed to be Buddhas they were really supposed to
be incarnations of the Buddha and of course at a certain moment especially when when kings started being killed
almost every year assassinated and poisoned and everything people didn't really take this very seriously but the
ideology was there codo Kings or sons of heaven or Emperors were never sacred or
holy they were different they were better than you and me they were better than everyone else but they were not sacred human beings they were not Gods
um they were the representative of Heaven on Earth they were the highest of the highest um sure um but in those
terms they were they were closer to other men I guess but that's that's just if you take Dynasty very literally and I
think if if we take it a bit broader which I think is your intention is the codio state and Society also right how
is that different from what came before it's different in very many ways it brought together Notions of History
Notions of culture cultural practices religious beliefs that hither to had never been put together not even by
Sheila Sheila was of course he didn't rule the north of the peninsula u i I'm really curious for example what happened
in Pyongyang all the time when Sheila ruled a pen I have no idea I know it was claimed by Sheila but who was there who
ruled it no idea codo of course ruled also the north of the peninsula which is
why I guess it's it's no coincidence that the territorial boundaries of North and sou South Korea today look so much
like the state that kodia put together it was I think the first Korean State the model for all the states that would
follow Choson tanuk South and North Korea and who knows unified Korea in the
future interestingly it brought all these different languages and religions
and and cultural practices together because Sheila and kodo people didn't understand each other pek they probably
understood each other but still probably was different language or at least very different dialect uh Notions of looking
at the world the way pek was Buddhist was very different from the way Sheila was Buddhist and Kio again very
different and all those nativist or indigenous practices that all and traditions that were particularly strong
in Peta and um and go also in Sheila no but different um it it put them together
and it didn't try to erase them and that's that's the interesting thing about codio for me and me it's pure
coincidence and luck that I ended up studying codo I mean if I had read another book During the period um I
think I was trying to decide what I was going to do I probably would have ended up studying tooson or perhaps modern
Korea but I didn't end up studying codo and that's so interesting because codo didn't try and put a stuff to it well
chos on did and they were pretty successful about it also they really tried to have any everyone look in the
same direction and think the same things well that sounds tooo North Korean it wasn't but basically the chosen world
view was a unified world view with one unifying principle for which everything emanated no such thing according to me
at least in codo very pluralist meant that you could trace your lineage as as
a family as a person back to different families uh also to women not just to
men which in Choson you would never do you couldn't even because well you could probably but you wouldn't that's I think
what what made codio very different from what came before and what came after the ability to let things that obviously
were in contradiction with one another things that were fague or ambiguous or
inconsistent or that didn't make sense to just leave them be while I think most people in most periods and most places
of the world if you see a contradiction if I see a contradiction my first instinct is to solve it to see what's
wrong right I'm sure codal people would also do that in many instances but at the same time on a very on a fairly
fundamental ideological level they let them be which meant that in different situations they could choose to do very
different things and still be feel connected to where they came from which as a society is one of the most
important things you can have because you become flexible and you can adapt to the most horrific things that happened
to you like the invasions of the Mongols for example codio survived no one else did and that's I think what made codo a
fundamentally different Society from what came before and after how did Coro legitimize its existence did it create
how did Koryo legitimize itself
new origin myth did it create a new sense of descendence how did it do it
that's one of the most difficult things I think about codio history and it's one I haven't fully come to grips with so my
easa out now would to be would be to say I don't know but of course I have some
ideas and also should be honest about the fact that in general we don't know there is no myth of origin in codo which
amazes me to no end there is just no origin myth uh and in that sense there is no creation myth either in Korean
history until very late 15th century I think when you read something about how the universe was created and the tangon
myth it's much but it's not a creation myth it's a myth of origin and it's um also not codo I think very late codo and
I've I've never seen any suggestion any kind of evidence that suggest to me that
this this predates um its first mention which is the 13th century so codo didn't
really have a myth of origin it had a myth of origin or story of origin origin story for its ruling family they came
from the north but that also is a very written down in the 12th century there three centuries after the family um
established codo which may have something to do with the fact that the Lea when they invaded burned down all
the archives or and the Mongols did the same is after it was recorded by the way but um so we don't know there is no myth
of origin I I think the way codo legitimized itself most effectively it
did it in very many different ways which is the typical codo thing again or at least that's what I think is a typical
codo thing it legitimized itself as a Chinese style state with a um a king or
sometimes an emperor or Son Of Heaven if the Chinese emperor is looking the other way uh heading the country uh and if you
look at the bureaucracy at First Sight if if you ask a sinologist to look at the cordosa it will look very familiar
but then if that person would start reading it would go like well this is not like China this is very different
and the words may be the same but different meanings different historical experiences at the same time Cordo also
legitimized itself as a murrian state as a successor state to kogo to p as a
state related to Leo and Jin it legitimized itself as the protector of the heritage of the saman which was
encompassing notion which included the Three Kingdoms the three later kingdoms
the samahan chinan and everything in between it legitimized itself as a
Buddhist country as a confusion country as a nativist country just it really depends on who you ask and in what
period and in what kind of social position these people find themselves and most importantly I think and this is
something in which I should do more research but I haven't found the time to do so the most important legitimation
may very well have been the landscape and this is something which has been overlooked I think I'm the only one who
ever wrote about it maybe that's because I'm completely wrong that's of course a possibility that it's more than being a
confusion state which it was more than being a Buddha society which is also was me more than being a nativist nation
which again it also was everything seems to lead to to the importance of the physical landscape the the role the
mountains and the rivers played in the codio consciousness the only thing I think codio Scholars
could successfully appeal to in the end when all had been said and done if they wanted to win an argument Buddhism
confusion ISM nativism dosm statism could opportunism could only get you so
far but an appeal to the landscape would get you much farther and what exactly this landscape was and that's something
we I really need to look into but I think that this is the repository or at least of of all the lived historical
experience because you see if when when people trle in this time and we only have the records of course of the the
well to do people like eqo for example or Kim buik when they travel wherever
they go they write about the history of that particular place and how that history fits in the Contemporary
situation so it's it's a a daily affirmation of what codo was and by virtue of them being of course the
rulers of the country also they legitimize the State of Affairs now they used to be a capital this this used to
be for example inju the capital of peka Once Upon a Time but now it's part of our codio it's much better this way and
then they would explain why that's probably the most important way codo legitimized itself through it physical
embodiment it landscape which is of course Very self- referential and I don't really know what to do with this but maybe a next book will solve this
once when I have time how do modern Korean historians perceive the Coro
how do modern historians perceive the Koryo dynasty
Dynasty it really depends um who you ask I think um there are a number of very
active historians who have really changed the way we think about codo there their work has been outstanding
really U and I think in general it's now accepted that codo wasn't need a pluralist society State what that
exactly means that is very much debated for some people it basically means that there were different kind of ideologies
and they didn't necessarily fight with one another uh and for other people in which I include myself it's much more
fundamental it's the world way of looking at the world in which you consciously or unconsciously and not
probably a mixture of both look past difficult things contradictions you just leave them be and much also much
old-fashioned historical work has also been done we now um have much better
notion of what the sources are because we used to work with the codio and the codio too the two main Works official
histories of codio but they of course were written compiled during the chosen period which brings a lot of problems
with with it doesn't mean you can't use them but it means you're basically looking at a state Through The Eyes of a
different Society things like that we know now we know how to I hope correct that balance well we still don't have a
critical addition of the cioa which is amazing with a lot of work of course but we do have translations or the
translation is not that important but annotated translations into Korean uh so we know its difficulties and things like
that the field has enormously developed but the one thing that that kind of surprises me is that in history is is
very much Al life in South Korea it's most South Koreans and I'm generalizing now but they know much more about their
own history than than most Dutchmen and it's it's considered important and if you bring an interpretation that goes
against what is seen as as as normal or normative I should say um you can end up
in a very heated debate which in itself is I think a good thing and that's in that sense I'm happy to see that
discussions about the codal period they still seem to escape the polarized environment that really plagues
historiography of other periods archaeology or the Three Kingdoms period you can't write about it without making
a political statement if you want to or not chosen period depends what exactly you write about modern contemporary
modern history everything you write is a political statement um and that's that's severely that's hugely problematic I
think historians should do whatever they do which is right history and of course I'm being horribly naive now but at
least the ideal is that you keep politics out of it of course you never do um but if you don't then you should
be at least transparent about it um and in in codio history the field it's still
a healthy field in that sense I don't see many political battles being fought there but still this is also a matter of
the Ten Injunctions
perspective the way I look at Cardio Dynasty or Stat cardio States cardio history is different from that of many
scholars who work inside Korea which makes for fun debates sometimes sometimes for very difficult debates
uh for example the the 10 injunctions which are usually regarded if you as
spiritual constitution of of the codo State Society Dynasty take your pick I
think if you look at any primary uh historical primary used in Korean
schools that's exactly what it will say the legacy of wangon the founder of codo
I don't think they were they were at least 100 years later it's forgery which is not a very nice word I mean there is
no nice words for this I I used the term creative deception and this actually it's a very good thing because it shows
you how people also 1,000 years ago used their own history to try and change
their future and their present to enlist the authority of a person who' been dead
for 100 years to come out of a very difficult situation which at that time
was Leo soldiers invading the country a domestic system that didn't work almost
Civil War I think the codo Dynasty escaped civil Civil War a few times one time it didn't and one of the times it
did Escape it was the early 11th century which is exactly the time when all of a sudden somebody finds in the Runes of a
burned down palace or his house a copy of the 10 injunctions hey look what I found here how come we never noticed
this before so that's that's a forgery and it's incredibly important in a very positive way as a forgery in Korean
history until now I think most of my colleagues who work outside of Korea agree with me if not all I think inside
of Korea I think one person agree with me everyone else vly disagrees and in
itself to be able to disagree and to talk about that is a sign of healthy academic discussion the thing that stops
me sometimes and that I don't particularly like is that these the lines seem to be drawn in terms of what
kind of passport you have and that's I think not a healthy situation but at least there is debate so that is good
and in general I think codo histography has developed beyond recognition and there there's still not enough people
working on it I I think but many more than before and the work that is being done is very high quality the only thing
is there's none enough in English still because it's and that makes it very difficult to access from uh from outside
of Korea you mentioned that Gia was pluralist you also wrote that and I
Pluralism
quote a state official who was in principal confusion could also be a Pious Buddhist who celebrated doist
rituals worshiped indigenous spirits and attached much significance to geomy and
other forms of divination does this mean that this pluralism was not just
societal but also at the individual level yes that's exactly what it means
and I wish my students would pick this up because sometimes they don't or often they don't I should say so now you're
completely right that's exactly what it means that's the interesting thing about codal pluralism for me also because when
I started looking at it I didn't have a word for it when I did start look at it I thought this was societal and that
codo had find a more or less for a long time until Mong at least so 11:35 or
thereabouts found a way to to coexist for different groups could coexist different beliefs but then I um
ironically I started to look into one of the most important figures during that time of codio history at all Kim buik
who is known now as this Arch confusion very rigid China surfing China Centric
person um who did much to um Minish the Korean Nation probably slightly
exaggerating but still he is a confusion scholar and yes of course we all know that he had a Buddhist temple in his uh
in his backyard but still really he was a confusion now I wonder whether he was
well no that's no let me reformulate that no he was a confusion he truly was a confusion and I think a revolutionary
in that sense the way he went about trying to reform the cordio state at the same time I have no reason whatsoever to
doubt what he wrote about his Buddhism the fact that he he died as a Buddhist monk a lay monk but he died as a
Buddhist monk in his own Temple um he wrote the doist rituals that were performed at court uh and although I
think the whole episode with Mong will probably left him with a bad taste in his mouth and a dislike for anything
that had to do with geomancy at the same time he was also known to take that seriously if someone who is generally
seen as the Paragon of confusion virtue can be that complicated
what would that do to all the all those other persons who were well less confusion or less prominent in their
adherence of one particular kind of way of looking at the world I never know what to call this system of thought a
system of believing it's it's everything put together properly um so social
pluralism you see is mirrored to a certain extent in the individual yeah um Kim buik is is a very good example but
there's so many other examples of of Literati because that's B basically what we're left with documents sources
talking about litera about Scholars and and most of them seem to have exhibit the same traits to the extent that those
who were really just confusion and they hated Buddhism hated everything else were mocked and ridiculed they were not
seen as being the norm they were different there were strange people who just believe in one thing and of course
it is possible and other Scholars have done this and still doing that and it's it's a legitimate way of reasoning but I
just don't agree with that I don't buy it is seeing making a choice so you have Kim buik who was a confusion he said so
himself he wrote confusion tracks who was a Buddhist also who was also interested in nativism and dosm so what
do you do with him well you establish that he was a confusion for example first and foremost everything else is
hypocrisy or he died in the Buddhist temple so that's where his heart lay everything else was either hypocrisy or
just opportunism which is possible but I think in general people don't work that way way of course we all are
opportunists we don't always hold to the belief we profess to believe at the same time I think it's very hard to function
as a human being psychologically if you don't have certain Notions you adhere to and these Notions may very well be um
contradictory I find it very hard to imagine a human being who is completely consistent in everything he he thinks
and sees you probably can be but you have to make an effort and I think in
the toen period we still have the same human beings I don't think I don't think humans change which is probably not a
very good thing but for me a human being from I know human person from the codal
period is very much interchangeable with you or me except for of course our contextual knowledge and everything and
experiences so in the chosen period you still at the same persons what's the difference the fact that it's no longer
authorized or socially acceptable to show those conflicting Notions and
identities on the state level and on the individual level they're still there if you look close enough they're still
there but you can't show them and it's not desirable and this is not a failure judgment um if I have to make a value
judgment I'll choose the codal dynasty seems like more fun it's a very shaky Foundation I think for making a failure
judgment but anyway but there's nothing wrong of course inherently by not
excepting that and embracing one guiding principle which is what the choice that was made in chos on both personally and
socially so what role did the ruler of the Coro Dynasty have in this context I
Koryos role
think the if you talk about the role of the the Coro ruler um you you probably should use the plural the roles of the
codo ruler uh in this context in these contexts because they're different context he was many things um he was
always a he that's the one thing that doesn't change and there's there's no diversity there and the official ruler
of codo was always a man before there used to be women rulers also female ruler R but that tradition ends in
anything else he was conflicted very ambiguous and contradictory and plural because he was a king which means that
in the Chinese system he was the ruler of a country which was practically speaking independent from the suarin
country which was could either be China or menuria so the Lea or the Jin or the
S or the dang but formerly speaking he would have to bring tribute to the son of Heaven who was um in either menuri or
um China at the same time he was also an emperor which means you don't there's no
one above you same rank as the emperor in China or the emperor in mauria and
then he was the son of heaven and this is really really interesting because if you look at the cioa it doesn't mention
Son Of Heaven almost never maybe even never I think there are records of in
the chosen period in which the people responsible for writing the codo s the history of codo they were actually
fighting with one another they had this really really fierce debates on whether or not to allow codo Customs to be
reflected in the codio or whether to correct them and make them proper and they did that's what they did so the
codo Son Of Heaven became a codo King this is easily done on paper but if you're faced with of course with stone
Steely uh inscriptions it's very very difficult to change it so if you look at
those inscriptions you actually see that son of heaven was a normal way to refer to the codo ruler and this is important
because King Emperor you can cabble about that but that's that's a level of human Affairs Prince King Emperor does
it really make a difference of course it does to a certain extent but the real difference is between anything else and
Son Of Heaven because Son Of Heaven is not uh you can't really find it in the the ranks of nobility it's an
ontological position it means that you are the chosen the heaven appointed representative of Heaven on Earth it
means that you have the Mandate of Heaven which is something the Chinese emperess were supposed to have have and
those in mria also so at a certain moment you get this really weird situation in Northeast Asia and East
Asia where you have three competing sons of heaven and where the Leo Son Of Heaven writes a letter to the codo Son
Of Heaven basically going well dear fellow Son Of Heaven how have you been this is what I would like to discuss
with you and that's so that's one thing that the codo ruler in this sense is all
three in one and not only when the others are not looking at him that oh I can be an emperor they looking at me I
can be Son Of Heaven also when they are looking at him because we are we do have sources which tell us of the displeasure
of the the song emperor with the way codo the codo ruler was treated or
basically called himself then within the country of course he was the foremost Buddhist uh he was not incarnation of
Buddha that tradition also dies with Sheila he was also I'm not sure whether
other colleagues will agree I don't think he was a chakra vtin or a Buddhist an ideal Buddhist ruler but he was the
foremost Buddhist believer uh who did special things for Buddhism who protected Buddhism who sponsored
Buddhism but he was a Buddhist believer so which means that there were Buddhists in terms of Buddhism who were above him
the Royal preceptor or the national perceptor and there were um ceremonies in which he would take part but he would
not necessarily lead them there were other ceremonies which he would lead as Son Of Heaven There were also Dosh
ceremonies which he also would lead as Dosh not sure what what to call it but it's leader of the country he's a very
multi-layered personality most importantly I think he was the focal point of codo identity because he
embodied basically everything that you could be in codo Buddhism confusion ISM DSM nativism he he represented the
country abroad he represented the country within itself within the it its boundaries he was the um ceremonially
symbolically according to law legally the ruler of the country well was he really the ruler in the sense that he
wasn't wasn't an absolute ruler he had to share power with other people with his ministers with important Aristocrats
with the Buddhist and that's basically what the ruler is in codo the first among his equals and he has a unique
position that no one can take from him not even during the military Revolt in the military rule period they killed
rulers they did if they wanted to but they always had a king/ Emperor SL Son
Of Heaven in place they never ruled in his stat not symbolically at least not ideologically practically yes so in that
sense he was indispensable until the Mongols come and then everything changes with what countries did godo actually
Koryos relations
have relations with and how were those relations conducted a very difficult question and to a certain extent it's
easy it had relations with its neighbors well who are those neighbors first and foremost menua so that's the Kitano the
J chin and the Jin I haven't mentioned the J yet they didn't have have a state
which made it difficult perhaps to have formal relations but if you look at the most active International partner of
codo is the Jin it's no one else then they of course they had relations with China with first Tong then the food the
later Jin then most of the time the song Until the Mongols at least and that's the relationship that's always mentioned
also in Chinese sources because the codo King accepted investure from the Chinese Son Of Heaven so he was a vessel and
codo was a a basically a cified country State Society there is some truth in it
but the key here is the word some some and not much more than that China has always been less important for codio
than menuria and the way and the reason why we don't see that is because codo used Chinese uh which kind of distorts
the whole discourse because you're using Chinese terms you're using Chinese Concepts Chinese Frameworks but we are I
hope smart enough to be able to make that distinction that you may use a language doesn't mean you become that
country that would be like saying that um I know the swetes in the middle in the Middle Ages were actually Italians
why because they used Latin uh and they use the same framework and they did at a certain moment that doesn't make U the
people who were Vikings just before that doesn't turn them into some kind of Romans right and something very similar
I think with with codo if anything they look towards the north they always look towards the north it's the most
important partner whether it's the J or the kitan if you look at the codo youth their role models were the northern
Warriors the mounted Warriors um then many family was bankrupted because of the spending
habits of these young men who would go after War at least with many expensive
horses and and fur and everything so those are I think the the three most
important trading partners or also exchange partners of of of codo the
Juran the muring dynasty whether that's the Leo or the Jin and the Chinese dynasty the Chinese States mainly soon
then of course there's Japan and that's one of the things that still puzzles me is that there doesn't seem to have been
any kind of official relations between cordio and Japan I'm not sure why not of
course Japan wasn't really unified at this time I understand that but still so my assumption is that there was actually
much trade going on and I think if you look at Japanese sources that's what you'll see but nothing really official
and of course in coastal provinces I means it's only 200 km and if the weather is nice I mean how long does it
take you from Kim to to to fukoka not very long even in sing boat even in the canoe 180 200 km it's very doable so
there must have been much interaction but we don't know it and we'll have to wait for archaeologists to uh to give us
their conclusions I think especially uh underwater archaeology but codal had more extensive relations um also with
communities I hesitate the word tribe because it's so Colonial the term to the north some more towards um tongus tribes
or communities or Siberian context um but also towards Central Asia we know
that there were Arab merchants in codo so it's seems as in we don't have many sources that actually substantiate or
that give us more detailed information codo seems to have been a very active trading country and given the its
position I would expect it to have had very extensive contacts in Central Asia
which we know to a certain extent it did but also uh the Middle East and perhaps even Europe but that's something that's
that's just pure speculation because we don't have the sources to back that up they don't exist or they don't exist
anymore I don't know in the regional context of the time was codo a big
Was Korea a big player
player and how did it cope with the even more powerful players that were around
when I um learned or studied Korean history I think for the first time but what I was always told is that Korea has
always been this really small country which was basically plagued by his excellent geopolitical um position and
as had never been able to really stand up for itself despite that it had been able to uh form consistent historical
identity and culture and everything but it was never a big player it was the the shrimp that was always caught between
fighting whals well if that's the case codio was a pretty big shrimp the kind of shrimp that that frightens whales and
there's there there are several arguments um to be made in favor of codo actually being an active and important
player in Northeast Asia East Asia or even beyond that a narrow Regional fine
the first kind of evidence I would like to suggest is the fact that codo and Korea still exist that's not a given
Tibet isn't an independent country anymore shinjang isn't had codo been
weaker it would have been conquered by China or by menuria or by Japan and it
has been invaded many times not as many times as it's claimed but it always was an important player in in Northeast Asia
if we just limit ourselves to the codo periods the one thing that always amazed me is the fact that codo with stood the
Mongols for four decades the Mongols who if jisan hadn't died probably would have
ruled much of Europe I mean they they came to Budapest they came to Vienna so
the Mongols who um conquered China they they conquered Central Asia they didn't leave anything standing of certain
Central Asian States Russia polish armies Hungarian armies no one had a chance against the Mongols no one and
who fight the Mongols for four decades Korea codo State managed to with the
Mongols six invasions long for four decades which is an incredible long period of time and not only do they do
that they also managed to car for triaka which is basically was supposed to be
the entirety of everything that Mahayana Buddhism had produced in terms of writings and it's three baskets um one
is the the sutras the sayings of the Buddha directly then the sastra the commentaries on what the Buddha said and
then the vena or the rules for Buddhist and especially from for monks and this was a huge undertaking you only
undertaken by the big States and it's usually a son of Heaven who does this the codo had done this before uh when
the leao invaded in the early 11th century but then this triack was burned by the Mongols so they thought it's a
very bad Omen let's make another one but this is not something which one monk
does or two monks or 10 monks you need thousands and thousands of people because you need to collect everything
that has been written then you need to read it and decide whether is worthy of
inclusion into the tripitaka and then you need to edit it and finally you need to carve it and they did they carved
80,000 wood blocks they're still there in haa which is in incredible it's and
then and doing this while the Mongols are are um invading your country that to me tells that codo was a pretty
resilient Country Strong also which could take a hit and hadn't that been the case the Lea would have at a certain
moment probably try and invade it the Jin also would have done the same the song if you read song sources they
fantasize about codel all the time wouldn't it be great if we could actually take it over because then we
could invade Leo or we could invade Jin codo was a big player was it the biggest
player no it wasn't big enough to conquer Leo it wasn't big enough to conquer song it was big enough not to be
conquered by either of them and to be able if codo would team with the song or team witha it would be big enough to
conquer the other one and that's exactly what you find in song sources Leo sources we don't have that many but in s
sources their biggest nightmare is a real alliance between Leo and codo
because they know that they wouldn't be able to withstand a concerted attack and of course codo is not Korea is not the
biggest country in the world having said that I'm from the Netherlands so I should probably not say anything about
size of the country but codo had a Navy that was internationally feared or
respected so the landbased power of Leo and the seab based power of codo put
them together East Asian dominance so I I think we should see codo as a very
important player not the biggest but this is this isn't the contest who was the biggest I think but we should be
finally be aware of how important and how strong codo was and how strong
states in the Korean Peninsula always have been the situation now is not an anomaly codo Chon the Three Kingdoms in
different ways because they weren't United yet Kio P they always have played important roles not just in the region
but also internationally and look at look at Korea now North Korea in a different way but South Korea is a
Powerhouse of course that's something for which we actually can find well
there are previous examples of Korean Pia being this important in the world you mentioned that there was trade with
Foreigners in Korea
foreign countries even from the Middle East what was the position of foreigners in the Korean Society at the time that
really depends um the the the position of foreigners in COD Society it it really depends on the period you're
you're looking at and it also depends on your definition of foreigners we have to be very careful not to to use modern
definitions of course and I think there were there were plenty foreigners in codo I also think that this wasn't that
much of an issue it became an issue much much much later uh and I'm talking about 19th 18th 19th century and before that
hardly the one thing it does tell me it it can't have been too problematic on a conceptual level to accept people who
look different who eat different who speak a different language who probably smell different who do everything
different into society I'm sure it wasn't easy but still conceptually it must have been possible and this is something which you see all through the
cordio dynasty until the Mongol uh period of um basically Mongol colonization is that there are always
groups of foreigners present and they're not very interesting andless they bring really nice stuff so they're always Jan
they're always kitan they're Chinese and then it's noted of course that these people people are from abroad there are
Arab Merchants there are Japanese and they seem to have been treated okay but
that's all I can say because I've never seen anything else there are some references to jurin killing one another
and then there's the question is how should you deal with them because they killed their own people they should be Tried by their own people use sangines
and that that's about it this changes dramatically during the the period of Mongol rule in codo because codo then
all of a sudden is part of the largest ous land Empire in the world of course
that that Empire the Mong Empire falls apart in four different parts but still it's part of this really huge Empire in
which trading all of a sudden becomes so much more easy than has ever been before inter international trade it becomes
feasible to buy something in Venice and send it to Korea for example and then you see um tens of difference of
nationalities entering codo under Mongol tutelage uh and they become codal
officials and that's a very different different kind of soci Society comes into being they're Mongols of course but
there are also ERS wers there are Chinese there are Japanese there well Japanese not too many at this time but
there are Central Asians all different kind of central Asians there are zians there Arabs all different kinds of
nationalities and many of whom become part of codo ruling stratum and also officially not just because they're rich
Merchants so you have to basically deal with them you have to give them a voice no these people become codal officials
they are accepted as codio officials which meant that they had to learn Korean probably Cen or and classical
Chinese but they did and this is um I I don't want to be um too much of a preacher and if you keep me talking for
some amount of time I always had the preaching somehow but the one thing that struck me the one point in common
between all states that prosper and they usually Prosper because of trade but also because of of a proper management
of what happens internally and externally is that they're inclusive that's the one thing if you look at the
tongue Dynasty and the Song Dynasty also but especially the tongue if you look at codo it's Heyday if you look at all the
the empires that defined history that basically created the world we have today the Mongol Empire is the biggest
example the one thing they all allowed is if you're good enough you are given
the position that fits your talents doesn't really matter where you come from doesn't really matter what your
background is it's meritocracy it's not a pure meritocracy because aristocracy
your family will always be important U but it's this inclusiveness and that also characterizes codio in its Heyday
that makes it such a power to content with same goes for Leo same goes for Tang it's it's this notion that you can
lose your foreignness you'll be different maybe because you look different or you dress differently but you can lose your your essential quality
of being a foreigner and that's I think a precious thing and that's also I think that's something that we've completely
lost and whether I talk about the Netherlands or Korea I think do doesn't make a difference if you're a foreigner
you'll stay a foreigner unless well there are always exceptions but I think basically this is true uh there is one
lesson to be learned from the past that if you want to be go anywhere as a state as a society or as Community don't want
to limit to the state it's you need to you need to exhibit this fundamental flexibility in dealing with people end
of uh sermon much of the discussion we've had so far concerned the first few centuries
Pluralism in Korea
of the Gordo era did early cio's pluralism continued during the rest of the codo era and when it ended why did
it end that is actually a question I I found most difficult to answer I don't think to be honest I answered it in my
book because I don't know uh why did it end did it end yes I think I think it did end um and I think it ended with
what should have been pluralism's biggest Victory um the victory of Kim
buik over Mong Mong and his people who were very Centric who admitted basically one notion as a notion of codio at the
center of everything uh and that was the um foundational base for for their view on the world for their value system well
Kim buik and people like him also of course helped by the international experience were much broader and they
were pluralist in the sense that they didn't allow one principle to determine their view of the world and Kim buik
defeated Mong or well not Ming himself he had been dead already by them but his forces pluralism was reinstated and
really officially because if you look at the samuk Sagi the book the first accent history of Korea really written by or
compiled by Kim buik that's pluralism and in its in its most obvious form I
think I still can't mention how you can read it as anything else in a pluralist testament because it's it's the samuk
Sagi right so the historical records of the Three Kingdoms um and my translation usually is the histories of the Three
Kingdoms not one history because there are three different histories of of kodil peka Sheila and they unified Sheila so maybe it's four different
histories and if you look at those histories they say different things sometimes the interpretation of one
point is different in the different and this is the same book which should propagate the same view of History this
is the pluralist view of the world of history of codo enshrined in the book
compiled by its most exalted it most powerful it most famous servant Kim buik
and then it stops somehow and the only reason I can think of well that's a there are two reasons one is internal
one is external internal this doesn't boot very well for us humans I think for the conditional man because we always
seem to gravitate towards wanting certainty one principle wanting Clarity
transparency and historically I think this is what you find in most societies there's also of course the the urge to
have something different but it's usually marginalized and minor and codio is an exception in this in the sense
that it actually codifies fight the bandwidth of of things that were possible different things contradictions
and inconsistencies and everything but I think the normal State of Affairs for for most people is not that kind of
pluralist state but a more amonous state in which there maybe the world as we see it yes it's contradictory and it's
ambiguous and there are lots of inconsistencies but they shouldn't be there we have to solve them and that's where we have to go all of us and that's
what chosan was like that's what most states are like that's what the Christian States in in Europe in the same time were like we know it's not a
perfect world but we're going to get there it's it's basically it's utopianism uh which is one of the most
dangerous things I think Humanity has ever kind of invented the notion of Utopia not the notion that things can
get better but the notion that things can get perfect which is what chosen was like of course much blood was shed in
chosen also then again also in codio um so that's one thing why I think cordal
pluralism ended because in the end I think it's not the most natural it's not the default position for human societies
and if enough things go wrong you start to lose the ability to deal with trouble
and codo got it its amount of trouble first it got the military refa in which
Kim buik son was killed then during the military rule the Mongols invaded the
military rulers were overthrown the rule was Authority was given back to the codo
rulers who were now Kings no longer Emperors no longer Sons Of Heaven and the authority they really received was
minor I mean this codo was now part of the Mongol Empire and I think this was a colonial situation and um I know my
colleagues in Korea don't agree U with this assessment I just had a discussion in this summer with some of them and the
main criticism was that colony is is a modern coner is a modern concept well I don't think it is I mean the Greek came
up with it a long time ago but even if it had been a modern concept I think codo came up with something and the
Mongols with something very very similar anyway that's the other reason that's the external reason why this Society no
longer um was pluralist first of all internally it had started to fail it had
started to show the basically disadvantages of of pluralism it has many advantages but it also has
disadvantages because you don't choose many things are possible which must freak out some people I can imagine at
least especially in Social context and the other thing is during the Mongol Empire one of the big things that was
really really attractive to codio Scholars the people who made the country who who did every who made all the
decisions was NE con fusionism and that's a NE conf fusionism is much but it isn't pluralist it's very modist it's
this one principle upon which everything else is based it's this one way of looking at life at at the world at and
that's when I said before your question about legitimacy and said the landscape was so important and all the historical
Recollections and experiences that were tied to the landscape in writings in songs but also sometimes really
inscribed in the Landscapes and inscriptions what you see during the Mongol period is is astounding these new
intellectuals because they are the sons of the old intellectuals but they look at the world completely different they
no longer refer to kodo's Old history they now look at the same piece of the same I know rock at the same Mountain
they don't celebrate its history within the codo Community they celebrate its history as a mountain as a concept uh as
a thing in itself which is a very new confusion thing to do and it's it's it's not a codo thing and that's that's the
external reason for for pluralism to basically disappear and I think if you look at the samusa so the the historical
remnants where memorability after three kingdoms we're finishing a translation of it in English and we still have to
decided on title that's usually seen as the beginning of a new Consciousness a new Korean Nation comes into being a
Korean nation that defines itself against the Mongols I think it's completely wrong now you really haven't
either you didn't read the work or you didn't you don't know anything about the context it's exactly the opposite I
think there was a koreon a codon Nation before and that codon Nation ceased to exist or it morphed into something very
different because there is historical continuity and it morphed into something chos on society in the end but first
Mongol codo society and the srusa if one thing it's a celebration of the
historicism of all the historical layers of codo and it's the last work of its kind and then nothing um so it
disappears and we we can still find it in in writings but pluralism as such as
a mainstream notion disappears and I mean it still exists in in in Chone but
it exists in each and any society has its pluralism usually we don't admit it
and I even I'm sure if you look closely enough has its pluralism has its divergences but they of course more more
than anyone wouldn't like to admit it and Jon's literarity also wouldn't really admit it although they would be a
bit more relaxed about it but so yeah no to to to brief to to to summarize the
pluralism codified by the state and carried really by Society it really
disappears and all that's left is the kind of pluralism we all know as human beings in every kind of
society Professor rer thank you so much for your time it's a real pleasure Alan
to do this um also because I think you are the by by by far the most well pre
prepared interviewer I've I've I've ever met so it's a real pleasure and a privilege thank
you this was Korea and the world to make sure you don't miss our next episode
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