Dr. Vikram Sampath - EXPOSING FALSE Indian History - Gandhi, Godse & Neh...

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Dr. Vikram Sampath - EXPOSING FALSE Indian History - Gandhi, Godse & Nehru | The Ranveer Show 273

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Today on the show, we host Vikram Sampath. He is an Indian popular historian, noted for authoring biographies of Gauhar Jaan and V. D. Savarkar. He is one of the most knowledgeable guests on the show - truly inspiring.

Bangalore-based historian Dr. Vikram Sampath is the author of 8 acclaimed books of history including biographies of Gauhar Jaan & Veer Savarkar & Bravehearts of Bharat on unsung heroes of India. He was elected as a Fellow of the prestigious Royal Historical Society of the UK, a winner of the Sahitya Akademi's first Yuva Puraskar in English literature & the ARSC Award for Excellence in Historical Research in New York. He has a Ph.D. in history & music from the University of Queensland, is a trained Carnatic vocalist & has established India's 1st digital sound archive for vintage gramophone recordings called the Archive of Indian Music.

This video is a breakdown of the Indian Freedom Struggle. The Indian independence movement was a series of historic events with the ultimate aim of ending British rule in India. It lasted from 1857 to 1947. Few leaders followed a more violent approach, than the others. This became especially popular after the Rowlatt Act, which permitted indefinite detention. The Act sparked protests across India, especially in the Punjab province, where they were violently suppressed in the Jallianwala Bagh massacre. The Indian independence movement was in constant ideological evolution.

Lucky are those who are born in this great country.

Proud to be an Indian

Today & Everyday

Happy Republic Day 🇮🇳

(0:00) - Vikram Sampath x Ranveer Begins

(2:50) - What is the Untold history of India?

(4:40) - Linear Indian history & more

(8:00) - About the 1946 Mutiny

(13:30) - Actual incident of the 1946 Mutiny

(16:35)- Recent protests on history textbooks 

(19:45) - False history of the world 

(21:00) - On the Indian freedom struggle

(25:32) - Yashpal - India’s celebrated author

(27:10) - On Sardar Udham movie

(34:40) - What is the truth of Veer Savarkar?

(39:02) - What is the true meaning of Hindutva?

(44:49) - On the torturous Kaala Pani prison

(50:40) - Who is Nathuram Godse? How he killed Gandhi?

(1:08:10) - Why our independent generation needs healing?

#republicday #india

===

Transcript

Vikram Sampath x Ranveer Begins

0:00

The Delhi University textbooks actually calls Bhagat Singh, Bagha Jatin, Jatin Das

0:05

all these people as revolutionary terrorists. The word terrorist is used for Bhagat Singh

0:11

and the descendants of Bhagat Singh had protested saying this was a term that was coined by our colonial masters

0:18

and today after Azadi Ka Amrit Mahotsav, we are still using terrorists for them.

0:23

Then around 12th January, 1948, when Gandhi made his call that if the Indian Government

0:30

does not give 50 crores or so to Pakistan as promised, he will go on a fast unto death.

0:36

At the same time when Pakistani forces were inc-- There were incursions into Kashmir, that is when these people said

0:42

this guy needs to be bumped off because he is a national security threat. At a time when Pakistan is attacking us,

0:49

why do we need to be so virtuous, saying we promised you 50 crores, we will give you and they are going to use that money

0:54

to arm themselves against us. Vikram Sampath is primarily known for his work in the field of history.

1:01

He's a PhD in history. He's written books on the Indian Freedom Movement, he's written books on Veer Savarkarji,

1:08

he's spoken about Shaheed Bhagat Singh, and today we have all these topics covered and more.

1:14

We're taught about the Indian Freedom Movement in our history textbooks in school, but I do not feel that, that's the way

1:20

you should learn about real history because a lot of history is hidden from us.

1:26

This podcast has always been about unveiling hidden history. And if we're talking about the Indian Freedom Movement,

1:32

please understand these other aspects of it as well. This one was a fiery,

1:38

inspiring conversation with Vikram Sampath. He's going to be back on the Ranveer Show. For now, enjoy this one.

1:44

For more episodes like this, make sure you follow the Ranveer Show on Spotify. Every episode is available on Spotify

1:49

48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world because we're a Spotify exclusive. Before I let you slip into this episode,

1:55

I just want to remind you that my meditation and yoga app, Level SuperMind is now live on the Play Store and the App store.

2:02

We want to make this an India to the world journey. A world-class Indian product

2:07

should make it big on the world stage. So whether you're an Indian, an NRI or a foreign national

2:13

watching this particular podcast, I highly recommend you check out Level SuperMind. And for now,

2:18

this is our India Special Episode with Vikram Sampath.

2:24

🎶[Music]🎶

2:29

🎶[Music]🎶

2:34

🎶[Music]🎶

2:42

Vikram Sampath. Welcome to The Ranveer Show. -Thank you. -How are you? Thank you Ranveer.

2:47

Great pleasure to be with you. I'm good, how are you? I'm great. We were just talking about how history is taking over the Indian internet.

What is the Untold history of India?

2:53

My theory is that a lot of young people are a little bit pissed

2:59

with the education system for teaching us some wrong history, some irrelevant history,

3:05

and focusing on topics that actually don't matter in the long term, when there's a whole bunch of topics

3:10

-that didn't make it to our history books. -Yeah. And people like yourself are putting it out there, putting the truth out there,

3:15

whether it's the freedom struggle, whether it's ancient Indian history. So that is my assumption.

3:21

That's my theory. That's why I believe history is taking off on the Indian internet.

3:26

You're perfectly right because I think, I also see in my interactions across the country

3:31

I just have a new book out, 'Bravehearts of Bharat' and for that I'm on these promotional tours everywhere.

3:38

I'm interacting constantly with young people and this is the constant grouse that they bring to the table

3:43

that we've been fed the wrong facts, we've not been told the truth. Our history has been so Delhi-centric,

3:50

large parts of India don't get featured in it. We have always been told we are a nation of losers.

3:56

We don't really know, what are the stories of valor, courage. If we are around as a civilization,

4:02

the only pre-bronze era civilization which is still around, there must have been some courage also

4:07

that we showed, our ancestors showed. So, why are these kept away from us? The freedom movement, a very linear,

4:14

simplistic, monochromatic view of that. All this is something, I think, that the young youth today

4:19

are talking about and social media is helping them amplify that. There are people, of course, the pros and cons of that are there,

4:26

of a lot of misinformation coming up. But I think it gives the youth a lot of platform to get information

4:34

and also disseminate the information proudly which they have probably got through various sources. Yeah.

4:39

Why do you think it's Delhi-centric firstly? And secondly, the question is, you said something about

Linear Indian history & more

4:45

us being taught a linear version of the freedom struggle. -Yeah. -I didn't even know, that there's another version, honestly.

4:52

What do you mean? Well, that famous Bollywood song, 'De di humae azadi bina khadag, bina dhal,

4:58

Sabarmati ke sant tune kar diya kamal.' which I think is drilled into our consciousness all the time.

5:03

That it's only, I mean, like an Attenborough film, frame to frame, it goes. That it's the nonviolent movement,

5:10

the mass movement that Gandhi and the Congress launched, which was great in its own way.

5:16

It brought out that sense of nationalism and galvanized people towards freedom.

5:23

But you also had an armed resistance. It was a violent armed resistance

5:29

which was an unending chain from 1857 all the way till 1946

5:34

when you had the naval mutiny in this very city of Bombay, Mumbai now, so...

5:41

Again, another topic that's not spoken about in too many history books. -Yes. -The naval mutiny. Yeah and look at the use of the term, Ranveer.

5:47

I mean, the 1857 uprising was called the Sepoy Mutiny by the British

5:52

as a very disparaging thing. A few sepoys rebelled here and there and we crushed it. It was Veer Savarkar, who called it,

5:59

"The First War of Indian independence." Ideally, the naval mutiny should have been called the last war of Indian independence,

6:06

but we still call it a mutiny. Mutiny against whom? The rulers. Were they our rulers? No.

6:11

So, then why do you want to call it a mutiny? It should have been called the-- It was the last nail in the coffin

6:16

of the British Raj. But we still perpetuate that. So from 1857 to 1946, this unending chain of revolutionaries

6:24

who also led another alternative story of our freedom struggle that is never told to us...

6:30

our young people today. I think people are asking questions. On Delhi centricity,

6:37

anybody could go to the NCRT book, which is freely downloadable on their website.

6:43

You have three chapters on the Mughal Dynasty. You have lots of references to the obscure dynasties of Delhi,

6:53

the Lodhis and Khiljis and Tughlaqs whose contribution to this nation, I don't know, is probably minimal,

6:58

barring a few structures here and there of architecture. But the Cholas, the mighty Cholas, who ruled for thousand years.

7:04

The Vijayanagar Empire. The Satavahanas. Rashtrakutas, Pallavas, Kadambas, Gangas, Chalukyas, the Wadiyars.

7:11

-Ahoms. -Ahoms. The Northeast is a complete black hole. If you ask a young child today,

7:17

can you name three Ahom rulers? The Ahoms ruled for 600 years, Man even if you ask a big child today.

7:23

Big child. Come on, Ranveer tell me. I've not done a podcast on it yet. Name three cholas.

7:29

Other than Rajaraja and Rajendra, please. -These are the only two I know, honestly. -Yeah. -Because... -The Ahoms...

7:35

-I know the dynasty's names. -Yeah. This is the issue. I've also grown up in the same India that you have,

7:41

-and we've had the same history textbooks. -True. If you want to truly learn about history, it's all about doing the research yourself. Correct, correct.

7:46

Which is why I enjoy my job right now. I just keep getting to unpack aspects of things I've not learned and that I wish to learn.

7:53

Yeah, yeah. But I've got to, I think, let's begin this conversation

About the 1946 Mutiny

8:00

by talking about the 1946 mutiny. And the reason I ask you that is I was once in a room

8:06

full of really well-established CEOs, and they were asking me Bollywood gossip because they know I interact with Bollywood stars.

8:12

How's this guy and how's that guy? I was like, that's cool. But do you know that the history we're taught in books

8:17

is not complete? It's extremely fragmented. And then those guys are like, like what?

8:22

So, they don't even believe that we've been taught fragmented history. -Yeah. -And I brought up the 1946 mutiny

8:28

because it was brought up on the show and people were shocked. They were like, I can't even believe this happened.

8:34

This is the first time, I'm hearing about it. These are established CEOs of multinationals. Wow, wow. There you go.

8:40

Let's start there. -Proved my point. -Yeah. Let's start there. Yeah. Well, I think the best proof of this

8:48

is Clement Attlee, who was the Prime Minister of Britain when India got her independence in 1947.

8:54

He comes to India after independence, around 1952 or 53. And he goes to various places.

9:01

He also goes to Bengal and there, there is the Governor of Bengal,

9:06

who is also the Acting Chief Justice of the High Court there, Phani Bhushan Chakraborty,

9:11

Justice Chakraborty, he is his host. And Chakraborty asks him, why did you people leave us

9:19

and got us freedom so quickly? Because no one expected at that time that India would become free so soon.

9:26

So he asked him, what were the reasons for you to leave us and go away so quickly?

9:31

And Chakraborty notes it in his memoirs, whatever Attlee talks about,

9:36

and Attlee very clearly is supposed to have mentioned that it was the heroics of the Indian National Army,

9:42

Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose and ultimately, all of it inspiring the mutiny, as they called it,

9:48

in the navy, in the army units in different parts of India. The British were petrified

9:54

of a repeat of the 1857 episode that there'll be a rebellion, an uprising or insurrection

10:01

in the British Indian Army. So, he said that was the reason we left the country and went. Chakraborty is supposed to have egged him on a little more

10:09

and said, what about the Quit India movement and the whole nonviolent movement of Gandhi?

10:17

What was that impact on your final decision to leave this country and go?

10:23

And Attlee is supposed to have smirked and said, minimal. -Those were his words, not mine. -Wow.

10:30

Attlee, it's coming straight from the horse's mouth. There was no need for him to be so condescending or disparaging of anybody

10:37

because India had already got freedom. It was a candidate conversation that the two were having 5-6 years

10:44

after India's freedom. So, I think, right from the British horse's mouth,

10:49

we get to know that it was the heroics of the INA, the naval mutiny, where so many sailors

10:57

decided to go in an uprising in this very city of Mumbai and that spread across to so many other units,

11:05

both in the British Indian Army as well as the navy. Now, mind you, when the Second World War ended,

11:11

there were about 2.5 million soldiers in the British Indian Army, out of which probably just 10,000 were British.

11:18

The rest of them were Indian origin. So, the revolutionaries,

11:23

their entire strategy, Ranveer, all through was to create this insurrection. Even if a 10% of this huge number

11:31

could be seduced to patriotism and they could switch over to the side of liberating your country,

11:36

then the edifice of the Raj would collapse. Because they were standing here only on the might of the army,

11:42

the British army. So, I think these people understood that, and created that insurrection in the army,

11:49

which is what, as I said, they did not want 1857 to repeat in Kanpur and all those other places,

11:55

you had mass massacres of Europeans, men, women, and children. Why didn't this happen earlier?

12:00

Why didn't this not happen earlier? I think constantly they were… All these attempts, right from early 1900s,

12:07

the Ghadar Movement, which was a transcontinental movement between Canada, San Francisco,

12:14

you had the Komagata Maru episode there. All of this was exactly attempts to do this very thing.

12:20

So, the idea was very clear in all these people's minds that this is the only way to liberate the country

12:26

because, you know, the weak point of the British Government and how to get them going. If you actually see very dispassionately,

12:33

all the reforms or anything that the British did to give in more to the Indian demands

12:39

were preceded by bloody revolutionary incidents. Whether it was the Morley-Minto reforms,

12:46

the Montague-Chelmsford reforms, the Government of India Act and eventually freedom,

12:51

all of that was preceded by, as I said, violent uprisings.

12:56

So, rod is the logic of fools. So, I think this was something that the revolutionaries understood.

13:02

They tried several times, but for various reasons it didn't succeed. I think Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose

13:07

and the country owes all its gratitude to him because he was the catalyst

13:14

who probably culminated the dreams of all these other revolutionaries who had slogged so hard

13:20

for so many decades and failed, unfortunately. Do you want to highlight the actual incident a little bit?

13:26

-Which one? -The 1946 incident. So, the 1946 mutiny,

Actual incident of the 1946 Mutiny

13:32

which started in Bombay, I'm saying Bombay because that's what it was called then. So, there were lots of sailors

13:37

who initially for, you know, the ratings that they had and so on, they were denied that and so on.

13:43

So that is why there was a protest on the deck, in the ships here,

13:49

which they went on hunger strike, they started protesting and so on.

13:55

But then slowly that entire thing grew into a larger demand for liberation

14:01

and carrying placards of long live Netaji and photographs of Netaji Bose,

14:07

these people went all over the city on marches, common people started joining them in large numbers.

14:14

And as I said, the flame that was lit in Bombay spread to different places, even South India, Karachi, Jabalpur,

14:22

different parts of India. By then the INA trials had begun in Delhi, the Red Fort,

14:29

and that too had created a lot of sympathy for the soldiers who had fought in the INA.

14:34

So, I think it was like a bomb that was ticking at that time and that's what shocked the British

14:41

and scared them beyond doubt. You know, what sucks -is that in our history books. -Yeah. The event preceding Indian independence

14:49

that's written about is World War II, So, they say, in 1945, the British Army was tired.

14:54

Britain itself was tired. And that's why in 1947 they decided to go. They don't highlight -immediate causes like this. -Yes.

15:01

-Yes. -I question why? Why is this not there in most history textbooks that we read in school?

15:07

That's a long answer to that. But I think after independence, the people who came to power,

15:15

I think they wanted to ensure that a certain viewpoint

15:20

about the freedom struggle itself was highlighted. And anyone who is not part

15:25

of that so called mainstream of the nonviolent movement, they would not get its due. You mean Nehru?

15:31

-Yes. -You can say it. -This isn't television. -Yes. That's why people are gravitating away

15:38

from television onto YouTube. No, I don't want to bitch about him, but I think some of these strategic

15:44

and Machiavellian attempts that he made to suppress

15:51

all opposing viewpoints, he was called a great democrat and a liberal and all that.

15:57

But then the stifling of voices, the freedom of expression, even a Majrooh Sultanpuri

16:02

languishing in jail for one and a half years because he wrote a poem in which he called Nehru, Hitler's disciples or something like that,

16:09

something as innocuous as that. And we say he's a paragon of freedom of speech.

16:14

I think that's a little far-fetched. But be it as it may, but the narrative that was set

16:21

was that we need to highlight only the nonviolent movement and the role of the Congress in it.

16:28

And anything that doesn't come within this framework that should not get its due in the history,

16:33

it should be mentioned, but it should be in passing. So, Ranveer, even now, in 2016, if you remember,

Recent protests on history textbooks

16:40

there were people who were the descendants of Bhagat Singh, who wrote to the HRD minister then, Smith Irani.

16:47

That the Delhi University textbooks and also, I think, the UPSC books or whatever written by this Bipin Chandra,

16:54

Mridula Mukherjee and all these people, actually calls Bhagat Singh, Bagha Jatin, Jatin Das, all these people

17:00

as revolutionary terrorists. The word terrorist is used for Bhagat Singh in the books.

17:06

And the descendants of Bhagat Singh had protested, saying this was a term that was coined

17:12

by our colonial masters. And today, after Azadi Ka Amrit Mahotsav, we are still using terrorists for them.

17:19

So, imagine a young child who's reading that and at the same time on television, you are seeing what's happening in Kashmir

17:25

or what terrorism and terrorist has a connotation today. They'll equate that to Bhagat Singh.

17:31

Do you think, this is because people like Bipin Chandra -and who’s the other name? -Mridula Mukherjee. Mridula Mukherjee, they grew up in another version of India

17:40

and they were probably influenced a lot by the history written in our books,

17:46

-probably in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. -Yes. Do you think that's the reason? These were part of what I would call as establishmentarian historians

17:53

who toed the line, that the dispensation, the political dispensation of the time wanted them to.

17:59

Around the same time, there was a big project to write immediately after freedom. A lot of these people were still alive,

18:06

some of the freedom fighters. So, interviewing them, capturing an entire history of the freedom struggle

18:11

was something that historian, the celebrated historian, RC Majumdar wanted to do. The government had initially commissioned him

18:18

in that project as well. But he made it very clear that see, I am not going to do some Gandhi eulogy in this.

18:24

I am going to be very critical of the man. And the man had a lot of failures in the manner in which he conducted.

18:31

We probably would have got freedom several years or decades before,

18:36

but for his flip-flop policies that he did all the time. RC Majumdar wanted to bring all this out.

18:42

So, from a commissioned role as the official chronicler of the freedom struggle,

18:48

RC Majumdar was summarily thrown out and a bureaucrat who had nothing to do with history

18:54

or modern Indian history. He was, I think, an expert of medieval Turkish history or whatever.

19:01

That guy was put in charge of writing the official history of the freedom struggle by the Government of India,

19:08

Mr. Nehru's government. So, it became very clear to all the other historians

19:13

that what line we need to toe. If we don't toe the line, you tell us we will lose our jobs,

19:18

we’ll lose all the patronage, all the awards, all the fellowships, all these things that academics look for.

19:25

So, you tend to toe a certain line. There was no social media, there was no Ranveer then who could give the alternate voices,

19:32

a platform like this. So, I think, that is why, most of them followed this and that has been subliminally,

19:39

come down in our consciousness -after so many decades. -You know, this is a problem all over the world -when it comes to different histories. -Yeah

False history of the world

19:46

I think the older generations have been taught one version of it and when it's challenged by alternative viewpoints,

19:51

it's often met with a lot of criticism. Like they call these kind of viewpoints really false, conspiracy theories.

19:59

But I think you need to lay out all the information and see it extremely objectively

20:04

-kind of emotionlessly. -Yeah. And I'm asking you the next question -from an objective perspective. -Right.

20:10

I think we've had Abhijit Chavda on the show very often, we may have done 20-30 episodes with him.

20:17

The one pitch that he keeps making on the show is that the world of geopolitics,

20:24

even historically has affected our viewpoint on Indian history as well. Which basically means that the world's power was centered

20:33

in the western block during World War I, during World War II, after World War II,

20:39

it used to be big daddy Britain -which became big daddy America. -Yeah. He pitched some very strong points,

20:48

which makes you think that maybe America and Britain at that time

20:53

have affected the kind of narratives -we've gotten about our history as well. -Yeah. -And probably even now. -Yeah.

20:59

In terms of even how the world looks at Jawaharlal Nehru -and Gandhiji’s branding. -Yes.

On the Indian freedom struggle

21:06

Which has been a big part of our minds. Lots of people think of the Indian freedom struggle,

21:12

-they'll visualize Mahatma Gandhi -Yeah, yeah. -As I said... -There are lots of people

21:17

who visualize Veer Savarkar and Bhagat Singh as well, -Yeah. -But it's primarily Mahatma Gandhi. -True. And this is very intense branding

21:24

which has been strengthened because of support from those geopolitical powers.

21:30

My question is why? Is it because some kind of promises were made before India got independence?

21:36

Did they promise Jawaharlal Nehru and Mahatma Gandhi that you guys will be given the opportunity

21:44

to be the leaders of this free country? What do you think? As a historian,

21:51

because there isn't any documented evidence around it. There are some secret files

21:56

which a lot of people talk about, which are out of bound. Just to think of it,

22:01

even all the Mountbatten papers are completely classified. We don't even know the last Viceroy

22:06

and the role of Edwina Mountbatten. What happened? How did she negotiate or come into the entire conversation?

22:12

We know how she came into conversation, -Yes. -Mr. Sampath. Everybody knows about your Lady Mountbatten,

22:20

but go on. Well, that's what as I said, I'm, unfortunately a historian

22:25

who will sit and look at what is the evidence for this and that. I don't want to go with the market gossip

22:30

-or insinuations, but yeah. -Okay. So, there were a lot of things that were going on.

22:35

Nehru has also infamously supposed to have said once that he's the last Englishman,

22:41

the Brown Sahib. So, I think a lot of people who also came to power, not only, I'm not talking of the political power,

22:49

but the bureaucracy, the people who held the power immediately after freedom,

22:56

several of them were part of the larger collaborator gang when the British Raj was in power.

23:03

So, they themselves or their children or grandchildren and all of these people became historians,

23:10

became bureaucrats, became intellectuals. One example I can give is,

23:15

of this man called Yashpal who very clearly, there was a paper that came out somewhere,

23:21

an intelligence report when the British were leaving the country. They very clearly said Yashpal is our man,

23:28

so please take good care of him when we leave. And Yashpal was the man who's supposed to have betrayed

23:34

the revolutionaries and also caused the… Leaked out the secret about Chandrashekar Azad

23:40

which got him to kill himself. The revolutionaries were so livid with him

23:45

for being the mole amidst them that they wanted to have him killed. And so the British jailed him and put him in jail

23:52

-to save him from the revolutionaries. -Wow. He also got married in jail, probably the few people

23:57

who have a honeymoon in jail. So, the British were very good with people who were on their side.

24:04

They would take very good care of them. That's why when today people say, Savarkar was a British stooge and this and that,

24:10

that is the very fact, that the British would take care of those who had sold themselves to them.

24:15

That is documented part of history. And after independence, Yashpal becomes one of the most loved intellectuals of the country.

24:23

He gets several awards, Sahitya Akademi Award. And he writes books in Hindi literature

24:29

on his own, blowing his own trumpet about how great revolutionary he was and so on.

24:36

That is something that gets perpetuated in the people's minds, too.

24:42

And he has quite a few nasty things to say, even about Savarkar and all that.

24:48

As I said, a lot of collaborators who later became part of the new firmament

24:55

ensured that a lot of truth was suppressed and kept under the carpet. And we're facing the consequences of that today.

25:02

But today, I think the time has changed. It's an information age. Light is the best disinfectant, now,

25:07

anybody who throws light on the suppressed facts, I think, and the youth really want to lap up to,

25:16

what is it that has been hidden from us? And right from the time of Adam and Eve, I think the forbidden fruit has been the tastiest thing, right?

25:22

So, everyone wants whatever is forbidden from you. That always is very tasty.

25:28

Welcome to The Ranveer Show. Got to ask you a little bit about Yashpal.

Yashpal - India’s celebrated author

25:34

What happened to him later on? Did he die, peacefully? Yeah, yeah a very celebrated author,

25:41

celebrated literature. As I said he was... he won the Sahitya Akademi Award. His books were prescribed as textbooks

25:48

and learning material and all of that. And I think he must have even got

25:53

some Padma and all these different awards. So, yeah, many people like that who wrote the narrative of Free India,

26:01

they decided, what information comes to the next generation. How do we frame that?

26:08

Who is to be excluded? Who is to be demonized? Who is to be eulogized? Everything was choreographed, and the Western powers also were…

26:14

You had to show the British in a nice way that they were I mean... peacefully we kept asking,

26:21

Quit India, Quit India. One day they just got bored and said, okay, let’s go, I will quit India and go. It was not so simple as that.

26:27

So, I think somewhere you needed to show this as a very nice… It's a great, as I said, an Oscar winning movie

26:34

Attenborough's movie, which gets all the global eyeballs. It shows India in a nice image

26:41

that we were very nonviolent, very peacefully we got our freedom, and also, it shows our colonial masters in good light.

26:48

So, it was a win-win situation for both. And that's why, in the process, so many people who actually sacrificed their lives

26:55

and everything by leading the armed struggle, their names till today

27:00

will be dubbed as revolutionary terrorists and not as freedom fighters.

27:07

-Like Sardar Udham Singh? -Yes. -Have you seen the movie? -Of course. -My God, what a movie, dude. -Yeah, yeah.

On Sardar Udham movie

27:13

-How many of us knew about him? -Yeah. I don't even think, too many people watched the film.

27:19

-It was a fantastic film. -Yeah. It's Vicky Kaushal’s best film. -Yes. -Shoojit Sircar’s best film. I met Shoojit Sircar, the director of the film,

27:26

and I said, that, dude, thank you for making that. That's how history should be shown in its darkest, truest form.

27:33

And he said thank you. He was grateful. But there was a part of him which definitely, at least that's what I sensed and that's what I felt.

27:39

I think somewhere he wanted more people to watch it And I highly recommend that dark kind of sad film

27:46

to every viewer watching this, you'll get a real emotional viewpoint -on the Indian freedom struggle. Yeah.

27:53

From the people who actually used or had to use violence as a means to help

28:00

-the Indian freedom struggle. -Right. I had never heard of Sardar Udham Singh till that movie came out.

28:05

-Yeah. -Why? Sure, you're not alone. There are millions like you who didn't know about him.

28:10

How many people have we not heard of like him? Thousands of them Ranveer, I think. In the course of my own research

28:17

on Veer Savarkar, the kind of names that came along right from Vasudev Balwant Phadke,

28:22

who was called the father of Indian revolutionaries and Maharashtra produced so many of them. The Chapekar brothers, Veer Savarkar,

28:29

his elder brother, Babarao Savarkar. Bengal had all, I mean, Aurobindo Ghosh, Barin Ghosh,

28:36

Prafulla Chaki, Kanhaiya Lal Dutta. All of them around the same time.

28:41

And when Savarkar goes to London, the kind of people whom he associates with there, Shyamji Krishna Varma,

28:47

Madam Bhikaji Cama. In Mumbai or in Delhi, you have a Bhikaji Cama Road or a Bhikaji Cama place,

28:53

but those who are there also, don't know who the hell this Bhikaji Cama is. Is it a man, woman, what is it, no one knows. Most often.

29:00

But she was someone who went and unfurled the first flag of Indian independence in 1907

29:06

in the International Socialist Conference in Stuttgart in Germany and the flag itself was designed

29:13

by Savarkar and Hemchandra Das Kanungo of the Anushilan Samiti. So, people like this,

29:18

whom we have zero clue of, MPT Acharya, VVS Aiyar, Sukhsagar Dutt,

29:24

lots of them like that. Senapati Bapat. You have a Senapati Bapat road in Pune.

29:31

But then, how many even in Pune know the details of who this man is? Sachindra Nath Sanyal

29:37

Of course, Ramprasad Bismil, Ashfaqulla Khan. Then, you know of the Kakori Case.

29:42

Then Bhagat Singh, Sukhdev, Rajguru. Rash Behari Bose, who formed the Indian National Army

29:48

and later invited Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose as I said, the culmination of this long train,

29:54

The Ghadar Movement itself which started with Punjab and the Sikhs there, who joined with this.

30:01

And then it goes across continents, through Europe to Germany, then from there to California,

30:09

San Francisco, and then even Canada. And the long train,

30:15

where they were trying to ally with Germany to ensure Germany invades British India

30:21

and liberates India. Of course, whether we would have become a German colony that's another question. But a lot of these heroes

30:29

who operated across countries and so on at a time when there were no communication channels

30:35

of WhatsApp and all of that like we have today. But still, the spirit of wanting to liberate your country,

30:42

just mind you, I mean, Purna Swaraj was something that the Congress coined in 1930. With the declaration for Purna Swaraj.

30:48

But the revolutionaries, including Savarkar, when he did his first student bonfire

30:54

of foreign clothes in 1905, gave the call for complete liberation. The revolutionaries were not asking for piecemeal negotiations

31:01

like the Congress was. That give us a little bit here and there, dominion status. They wanted complete freedom

31:08

for the country as way back as 1905, which I think says a lot about what the objectives

31:15

of the two groups were as they were working. What did you think of the movie? Oh, it was excellent movie.

31:21

I think it really left me deeply moved. And I agree with you, it's probably Vicky Kaushal's best

31:27

and Shoojit's best as well. I wish more of these movies get done on many of... There's so much drama,

31:33

there's so much, all that Bollywood wants, I think, is there in the stories of all these people. They've shown the Jallian Wala Bagh Massacre,

31:39

-as it should be shown. -Yes. -Yeah. -Which is deeply violent. -Deeply heartless. -Yeah.

31:45

We've read about it in our books. But the way they've visually shown it in that movie.

31:50

It moves everyone. -It will stay with you forever. -Correct. They've shown people's hands being blown off.

31:56

-Kids dying. -Yeah. It really makes you think about the truth. -Yeah. -That sometimes words

32:03

are not able to capture as well as visuals. True. Very true. Very true. Which is why we probably need a lot more movies

32:10

-about people like Veer Savrkar. -Yeah. -Bhagat Singh. -Yeah. Everyone seen the Ajay Devgn, Bhagat Singh movie,

32:16

and that's my reference point as well. I remember in 1996 or 97,

32:21

there was a Veer Savarkar movie also, which my mum took me for, -It's one of my earliest memories in life. -All right.

32:27

I think it's got Annu Kapoor, if I'm not mistaken, he plays Veer Savarkar. It’s a Malayalam film that's dubbed in Hindi,

32:32

-Okay. -I highly recommend people watch it because they've shown a very raw image of him.

32:39

They've shown him in Kala Pani, -which was the jail in The Andamans. -Port Blair, yeah.

32:46

They used to make the prisoners do an oil extraction.

32:52

-‘Kullu ka Bail’ punishment. -Yeah. I'd love for you to expand on it as well, but it's basically sort of a torture technique

32:58

where they make you extract oil from seeds. And then when he doesn't comply

33:04

and he doesn't give them information about the Indian revolution, they actually tie him upside down

33:11

on the extraction device and make sure his head rubs against the ground

33:17

and he gets dragged along with the machine. And his body is used to actually extract the oil from the seeds.

33:24

And I saw this as a four-year old man. -Wow. -Yeah. I was just like, whoa. What has gone on, in this country

33:30

before I got here? But it gave you a very dark image

33:35

of the Indian freedom struggle. And I'm sure there's so many things that don't even make it to the world of films.

33:41

Which is why now I need to bring you into the actual meat of this episode. You've written an entire book on Veer Savarkar.

33:49

History books don't mention him. Very casual, random mentions.

33:54

You hear about him -when you live in a city like Mumbai, -Yeah. But not as much as you should.

34:02

There's a lot of Gen-Zs we have watching the show, teenagers who watch this show. What's the truth about Veer Savarkar

34:07

that Indians should know? Well, here was a man who started India's first organized secret society

34:14

which was called the Abhinav Bharat. Initially Mitra Mela, which later became Abhinav Bharat. He led the first ever student bonfire

34:22

against foreign clothes. When we talk of bonfire, we only think of Gandhi and the bonfire of clothes.

34:28

But in 1905, as a student of Fergusson College in Pune, this man had done that

34:33

for which, he even got rusticated from college. And then five years that he was in London as a law student,

What is the truth of Veer Savarkar?

34:40

he led, literally, the revolutionary movement sitting there and got all these other people

34:46

I mentioned earlier who were there with him, Shyamji Krishna Verma, and all of them into this entire movement.

34:53

And wrote this seminal book after researching British documents

34:58

on the 1857 uprising, gave it a respectability by calling it 'The First War of Indian Independence.'

35:04

And that book, Ranveer, became literally the Bhagavad Gita for all future revolutionaries.

35:09

Whether it was Bhagat Singh who got the second edition of it published or even Rash Behari Bose

35:16

and Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose who got it translated into Tamil and Japanese and all kinds of languages

35:22

and how a revolution needs to be structured, the entire prescription was there in that book.

35:27

So, someone who had contributed so much and 12 long years in Kala Pani, two years in Indian mainland jail.

35:34

So, 14 years of imprisonment and then 13 years after he comes out, he's kept under captivity and house arrest

35:40

in Ratnagiri in Maharashtra, where he could not even go out of the borders of Ratnagiri. So just imagine a young man

35:46

who is wanting to become a barrister, goes to London, is caught by the British

35:53

and unfairly tried. And 27 years of his life are snuffed out.

35:59

His degrees are snatched away from him. The law degree, the graduation degree from Ferguson.

36:04

So, on paper, he was just a metric pass. His entire family property confiscated. And so, when he and his elder brother go away to Kala Pani,

36:11

the women of the family, they literally had to beg to eke out a livelihood.

36:17

Even utensils were taken away and auctioned, literally brought to the streets.

36:23

So, this is the sacrifice not only of him, but also, his entire family. His wife, his sister-in-law

36:29

and all of them, Yesu Vahini and all these people. And so easily today,

36:35

sitting in air-conditioned rooms, people pass judgment saying he was a traitor, he was stooge and all of that

36:41

which I think is grossly unfair. What is their argument? I mean, the fact that, it is mentioned

36:47

that he wrote mercy petitions to buy out his liberty

36:52

from jail and so on, which I think is a flawed argument, because these were petitions

36:59

that commonly a lot of political prisoners wrote those days. It was not something that exclusively he wrote.

37:05

And in my book, the first volume of the two-volume biography on Savarkar, I have mentioned

37:11

all the petitions in toto, there were six or seven that he wrote. So just like you can have a lawyer,

37:17

today you can have a bail application, a lot of people used to file these petitions

37:22

which were applications, and in those petitions, your viewers can actually read those and there was nowhere an apology.

37:28

In fact, the British records themselves say that when they came, one man called Reginald Craddock,

37:34

who comes all the way to interview him, he in his official jotting, says, I interviewed Mr. Savarkar and he shows no regret or repentance

37:42

or remorse for what he has done. So why would the British want to write that about him He could have prostrated and said,

37:48

my Lord, set me free from here. But he didn't do that. And then most of these petitions, he was also filing

37:54

on behalf of other younger people, young revolutionaries who didn't know English, who didn't know the law.

38:00

So, this man was called 'Bada Babu,' who had studied law and who knew English,

38:05

and he could be their spokesperson. So, in fact, in a 1917 petition, he says, if my name constitutes an obstacle

38:13

in the release of all the other prisoners, then delete my name and release the others. And that would give me as much pleasure

38:20

as my own release would secure. So that clearly shows he was talking on behalf of all the other people,

38:26

but this is constantly brought out to demonize him.

38:31

And you spoke about Kala Pani, Ranveer and the atrocities there, not only to Savarkar, but all the other,

38:37

only the revolutionaries were housed in Kala Pani. Mind you. No single Congressman was sent there.

38:42

Hold on, just hold this thought, because I want to go back to this debate of where does Veer Savarkar actually stand

38:48

in the Indian history textbook, basically? When I was doing my research for this episode,

38:55

the word that repeatedly came up -along with him was Hindutva. -Yeah. And I feel in the modern day, Hindutva doesn't mean what it actually meant back then.

What is the true meaning of Hindutva?

39:04

Like, see, now that we even used the word Hindutva, there's a lot of listeners who probably switched off because they associate Hindutva

39:09

with Hindus being against other religions like Islam, Christianity, Sikhism, Buddhism, et cetera.

39:16

And honestly, to some degree, that is what Hindutva has become for a lot of Hindus out there today

39:22

who are against other religions, who want to have this whole Hindu nationalism thing going on in the country.

39:27

But back then, I believe Hindutva meant something very different. And he was inspired by the ideals

39:34

-of Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj. -Yeah. And at that time, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Hindus

39:41

were all fighting together. So, I'm sure that there was no religious sentiment

39:47

behind what he did. But I'd love to know this Hindutva angle on Veer Savarkar. Hindutva, the way it was envisaged by him.

39:54

He wrote this very slim booklet called Essentials of Hindutva, who is a Hindu? While he was in jail

40:01

and while all his other writings were in Marathi, this was one he wrote in English for a pan-India audience.

40:07

Because that was a time when this very dangerous movement that was going on in the country called the Khilafat Movement

40:13

which Gandhi had led with the idea of bringing Hindu Muslim unity. But it had very dangerous ramifications.

40:22

The seeds of partition were almost, I think, crystallized around that time

40:28

because of the way it was led where on a communal issue of who will sit as the Sultan or the Caliph of Turkey,

40:38

which the British had won in war, you were bartering Muslim support for the freedom movement.

40:44

So, a lot of Muslims did not participate till then in the freedom movement. Very little membership of the Congress too.

40:51

So, I think Gandhi's idea was if you show them this little carrot saying it's a cause that is very dear to some of you,

40:59

so we will support you for that. In return, you participate in the non-cooperation movement.

41:04

And in return, he had promised that within one year the country will become free and we will establish a caliphate,

41:10

a pan Islamist, a very Wahabi kind of a movement to establish a caliphate there.

41:17

Why should we in India support something like that? But that was done. And when both these things did not work,

41:22

his promises, there were lots of Hindu genocides that happened in the 1920s,

41:28

including the Moplah carnage in Malabar in different parts of India.

41:34

And the Hindus were almost being led like a Pied Piper to their, leading the rats to their destruction.

41:40

And that's when Savarkar comes up with this document of what Hindutva is, which right at the beginning

41:46

he says this has nothing to do with the theological aspects of Hinduism as a religion or the matters of soul,

41:52

super soul, all of that. This is more of a cultural and a national identity marker,

41:57

so, to say, you need to have your devotion, your affiliation to this nation, those who consider this landmass as their punyabhumi,

42:06

not by religion, but by your affiliation. You don't care who becomes a Sultan in Turkey, you're thinking of this country,

42:12

your punyabhomi and your pitrabhumi, your ancestral, where your ancestors come from. That person is a Hindu.

42:18

He or she can be Jain, Muslim, Parsi, Sikh, whatever else. But culturally and nationally

42:24

they would be termed as a Hindu, according to Savarkar, because they're from Hindustan. Hindustan, and the world saw Al-Hind

42:30

right from how the Persians and others saw us. This was to this part of the world was called Hind.

42:36

So, people from there were Hindu for him, of course, the very fact, that there's a religion by the same name

42:43

complicates the matter. But that was Hindutva. Hindutva is Hinduism that resists

42:51

all kinds of predatory moves on it and also, anything that looks at Hindu unification,

42:57

because Savarkar's role, even in Ratnagiri in the 13 years that I mentioned

43:03

was on caste eradication very few people. Today Hindutva is equated with, Manuvad,

43:10

and all of that, while in reality, here was a man who for 13 years stood for a complete elimination of caste,

43:16

not just untouchability, as Gandhi was advocating, but removal of all kinds of, and unifying the entire Hindu society

43:23

as one strong unit. So, I think the misunderstandings

43:29

that we have of this term as it grew is very unfortunate And we tag him with whatever, as you said,

43:36

today's agenda today politics also enters that so much, so that complicates things further.

43:42

I have to bring you back to truth and history. Do you want to elaborate

43:48

a little bit on Kala Pani? Kala Pani to me, Ranveer, I think, is one of the most horrific, it was an Indian Bastille, so to say,

43:55

one of the most horrific aspects of our history, which unfortunately, we don't talk too much about.

44:00

I remember going there for my research, for Savarkar and just the energy of that place.

44:07

And as someone who's sensitive to energies, you can literally feel the kind of suffering that your ancestors who fought

44:14

for the freedom of this country faced when they were holed there. There were more than 300-400 revolutionaries,

44:22

largely the people who were holed up in Kala Pani, along with the hardcore criminals and rapists and murderers and all that,

44:28

were the revolutionaries. Congress people never went to Kala Pani.

44:33

This was like the worst of the prisons and the inhuman tortures. They are unspeakable.

44:40

The basic human rights facilities of good food, good drinking water

44:46

or toilet facilities that also was not given to these people. There were punishments of standing handcuffs,

On the torturous Kaala Pani prison

44:53

your legs tied up for weeks and months. And most of the food that was given

44:59

that would have pieces of reptiles and whatever in it. So, eating most of that, most of the people would get diarrhea.

45:06

But there were fixed timings to go to the loo. So, at any other point of the day,

45:11

if you needed to ease yourself, you couldn't go to the toilet. And so most of the prisoners,

45:18

they would defecate and urinate in their own cells. And you had to sit, sit down or sleep

45:25

and even eat amidst your own squalor, which would have been a soul-sapping experience.

45:33

And then this ‘Kullu ka Bail’ punishment, as you mentioned earlier, where the bull that was there,

45:40

the bullock that would be yoked to the oil grinding machine. Instead of that, you would have the political prisoner

45:47

who, in the blazing heat of Port Blair, would have to go round and round that and extract about 30 pounds of oil.

45:54

At the end of the day, that would be measured. And if it was even 1 ounce less than that, you would be whiplashed.

45:59

You would not be given food. They were given the worst of clothes which would cause skin rashes,

46:06

leeches biting into their skin but no medical treatment given to them.

46:11

Many of these were young people who were in their teens, late teens, early 20s, not more than 30.

46:18

And the kind of tortures, many of them, lots of them actually committed suicide because they thought death was better

46:24

than the kind of tortures that were meted to them. In fact, the British had also started

46:29

an entire asylum in this place called Haddo Island near Port Blair because many of them went mad

46:36

because they could not bear the kind of tortures that they gave them. They were not given newspapers to read initially.

46:42

They were not given papers or pen or anything. Even Savarkar, he was a prolific poet.

46:48

From his nails and with charcoal he would write on the cell walls his poetry in Marathi.

46:54

And to spite him the jailer would come and whitewash the wall in front of him.

47:00

But this man had such a precocious memory that he had memorized all,

47:05

not one or two but 4000 lines of poetry in Marathi called Kamala and Saptarshi and all of that

47:12

which he memorized and came out and those books got published. So, the kind of tortures

47:17

that these people faced, as I said earlier, it's so easy today expose factor to sit and pass judgments

47:24

about all these people. But do we even know, in Port Blair, in The Cellular Jail,

47:29

there are all these big walls on which the names of all the people

47:36

and from which state each of these political prisoners came. A lot of them from Bengal, Maharashtra, Assam

47:42

and then the United Provinces, Tamil Nadu, Bihar, all these places. When I just stood in front of that

47:49

and just saw that and as I said, I felt those energies of these whales and people who probably ended their lives

47:56

in a miserable manner. I was deeply, deeply moved. I remember coming back to my hotel room and breaking down

48:02

because it took me a lot of effort to get over what I had experienced by just going into that.

48:08

But I always say, I think the Kala Pani should be a place of pilgrimage for all Indian students to go there,

48:16

and the least we can do as a nation, is to pay our gratitude to them, not forget their names.

48:22

Can we list ten people who suffered in Kala Pani? I don't think our history books do justice to that

48:29

in our growing up years saying what else do we do? At least remember their names

48:34

and pay them that tribute and gratitude. We are celebrating 75 years of independence today

48:40

thanks to the blood, sweat, and toil, and life of several of these great men

48:45

and several women. And I think, we would be very ungrateful as a nation, if we did not do that.

48:51

And high time, maybe through your show, I hope many people who are watching this, go to Kala Pani,

48:57

make it a regular part of the itinerary of some of their children or their students or whatever.

49:04

That's so important. Intense.

49:10

Were women also a part of it? No, not in Kala Pani. Very few. Most of them were men who were put there.

49:16

But women... Revolutionaries had other kind of... I mean the were, they... also someone like a Durga Bhabi

49:23

or a Madam Bhikaji Cama who sacrificed, they left their families, everything

49:29

to do what they did. What was the logic behind creating such a place?

49:36

-It was to break people's spirit. -Break people's spirit. Yes, yeah, yeah.

49:41

Probably the most intense place that the British had built. Yes, and the British talking about human rights

49:48

and all of that. So, while we ask them for an apology for Jallianwala Bagh, which half-heartedly I think some of them gave,

49:56

including, I think, the Queen when she came here. But I think they owe an apology

50:02

even to the tortures in Kala… They owe an apology for several things, but Kala Pani too

50:07

and for the Bengal famine and all these kinds of the worst of tortures.

50:12

And this is not some ancient history or medieval history we're talking of. This was about 100 years ago

50:17

or less than that. So, I think just being aware, but imagine we've not been told about it

50:24

in this kind of graphic detail, and so, we don't think it is a big deal.

50:30

So, information is power. So, once that knowledge comes into our control,

50:37

then I think change naturally follows. What is Veer Savarkar’s association

Who is Nathuram Godse? How he killed Gandhi?

50:43

with Nathuram Godse. That was the other name that came up -in my research. -Yeah.

50:49

I'd love to hear about Nathuram Godse as well. Let's hear that side of the story. Again, this is not me supporting Nathuram Godse, what he did.

50:56

I don't think that death is the answer to anything, honestly. -Assassination. -Assassination.

51:03

I don't think someone else's life -is in your hands to take. -Yeah. So, I'm almost against Nathuram Godse,

51:10

but I'd love to understand his motivations how Veer Savarkar is associated with him?

51:17

-Or with his side of the story. -Yeah. Godse is a very interesting character that way.

51:23

I mean, did we know, like, even the name, it's Nathuram. So, his parents apparently had several...

51:32

all the male children who would be born in the family, they would die, and they thought it was because of some curse

51:38

or something of some God. And so, they said they tried to conceal the gender of this child

51:44

and they used to put a nose ring to him, the Maharashtrian nose ring. So, that's how he got his name, Nathuram,

51:51

which they thought because of, if you make him a girl, then he won't die. And he lived on to do what he did.

51:59

He came under the spell of Savarkar when he was in Ratnagiri and became his secretary, his confidante.

52:05

And when Savarkar was with the Hindu Mahasabha, as its president. He was a very, very ardent follower.

52:11

There was a youth wing within the Hindu Mahasabha of which Nathuram and also this other guy

52:19

called Apte, Narayan Apte, who together were executed for Gandhi's murder.

52:24

They were part of this youth wing. They were very trusted confidants.

52:31

But in his testimony in court, Godse himself mentions that, as we came closer to independence,

52:40

Savarkar became almost a pacifist. He said, we are now going to get freedom.

52:45

So, we should support the new government. It's now a government 'of' and 'for' and 'by' Indians

52:52

and not outsiders. So, we need to stop being against Gandhi and Nehru

52:58

and all of these people, which some of these hot-blooded young men within the Mahasabha, Hindu Mahasabha were against.

53:04

And he, Godse being one of them. How old was he at the time? He must be in his 30s.

53:09

-Okay. -Yeah. So that's one reason they decided to break away from him. And in fact,

53:14

there's this anecdote that he mentions saying when Gandhi was, and that was the peak of the partition

53:21

people were seeing the kind of refugees who were coming from there trains full of corpses and all of that.

53:28

Women being raped and houses being plundered and Noakhali and the Direct Action,

53:34

what was happening in Bengal. All of that was something that a lot of people, including people like Godse, were seeing

53:40

and they were blaming Gandhi for not taking enough action,

53:45

rightly or wrongly. But then they were blaming him for letting things come to this pass

53:51

where in front of you there is a massacre. I wish the partition had been planned better,

53:56

but that's because the British left in haste, just as what the Americans did in Afghanistan.

54:02

And most colonizing powers are that. They leave the country, they colonize, to the vultures and they go away.

54:09

What happens is bloodbath after they leave. So, something similar happened in the subcontinent

54:15

and all these young men who were aroused by that, they were seeking revenge.

54:21

So, in fact, in my research, I came across that Godse, they were not professional killers or anything.

54:28

They had all kinds of plans to take revenge. They wanted to cross over to Pakistan and bomb the Pakistan assembly when it was in session

54:35

to kill Jinnah and all these people as a retribution. That was obviously, it failed,

54:41

because how do you manage to cross over and get ammunition and all that? Then they wanted to loot the Nizam's treasury.

54:48

Because Nizam wanted to affiliate with Pakistan. But for Sardar Patel, we would not have had Hyderabad.

54:55

Then around 12th, January 1948, when Gandhi made his call that if the Indian Government

55:01

does not give 50 crores or so to Pakistan as promised, he will go on a fast unto death.

55:07

At the same time, when Pakistani forces were incur… There were incursions into Kashmir by the tribes and all those people.

55:15

That is when these people said, this guy needs to be bumped off because he is a national security threat.

55:21

Because at a time when Pakistan is attacking us, why do we need to be so virtuous

55:26

saying, we promised you 50 crores we will give you, and they are going to use that money to arm themselves against us.

55:33

And for that, this man is going on a hunger strike unto death. So, these people, 12th January,

55:41

just about 18 days before Gandhi was finally murdered, was when they hatched the plot.

55:47

And in my book, I detailed the entire thing based on about 11,000 pages of court documents

55:52

that I found in the National Archives of India, saying how these people went about it was a sham of an arrangement.

55:59

They made an attempt on Gandhi's life on 20th Jan, almost 10 days before his murder.

56:05

That was an aborted attempt. The police of Delhi, of Bombay knew that Gandhi's life was under threat,

56:11

but he was not given enough security, which was again a big mystery as to why that happened.

56:16

There were so much of information lapses and finally, Gandhi was a sitting duck. Emotions kicked in here

56:23

of all these people. Yes, it was largely a very charged, the atmosphere, was charged.

56:28

Not only Godse, I mean, when Gandhi went on this fast, there were refugees who are coming in from Pakistan side,

56:35

who were in Delhi living on footpaths and all of that. And they were shouting protests

56:40

when Gandhi was in Birla House saying, let him die, let the old man die, let him die because we have lost our families,

56:48

our everything, our property, everything, and come here. And this man is supporting the same people.

56:54

So, that sort of charged atmosphere that was there, even in Delhi, in the heart of the national capital,

57:00

was something that probably inspired many of these people to pick up the gun and do what they did,

57:05

which I don't endorse at all. As you rightly said, a heinous crime, like a murder, is something that needs to be condemned.

57:12

But because he had this past affiliation with Savarkar, Savarkar got dragged into the entire case.

57:19

There was some police approver, called Digambar Badge, who gave this sham of a story

57:26

that Godse and Apte, went to Savarkar's house in Dadar in Mumbai, where he's supposed to have told them in Marathi

57:33

that “yashasvi houn ya,” be successful and come back. And that was a bunkum story,

57:38

some gossip, there's no way to corroborate that with any evidence. And on the basis of all this fixed match that it was,

57:47

Savarkar was implicated in the case. By then, he'd suffered two heart attacks. He was almost, half dead.

57:53

There was no way that he would have done all this. As I said, he was pacifist. He was wanting to cooperate with the new government.

58:00

But he got implicated in it. And there were the Red Fort trials that went on for one long year.

58:06

And seeing all the evidence, the judge exonerated him. Among all the people, other than the approver,

58:12

most of them served 15-16 years of sentence. Godse and Apte were hanged.

58:18

But Savarkar was honorably exonerated by the court. And as recently as now, Ranveer, in 2018,

58:25

there was someone who filed a PIL in the Supreme Court

58:30

saying Savarkar's name was implicated in the Kapur Commission. Which was set up much later 60s

58:36

to the reinvestigate Gandhi's murder. And this man called Pankaj Phadnis, who filed this,

58:41

he wanted the court to relook at it and exonerate Savarkar. Now, the Supreme Court appointed an amicus cure

58:48

to go over all the documents. And after one and a half years, a bench headed by Justice Bobde,

58:54

who was the CJI later, and Justice Nageswara Rao. They gave a verdict in 2018,

58:59

four years ago. That the plaintiff's petition that Savarkar's name is part of the conspiracy,

59:06

is null and void. The trial court in Delhi, what it exonerated him in 1948, that holds.

59:13

And this insinuation is wrong. Now, something like when the Supreme Court of the country exonerates someone,

59:20

I think somewhere you should respect the court and the laws of the land and the matter should be laid to rest.

59:26

But then politics enters the whole thing and time and again you have these kinds of insinuations

59:31

made against him. Is his image being cleaned up now as it rightfully should

59:37

because of the current government? To an extent, I think, they've brought the focus back on him.

59:43

When you have that very powerful image of the Prime Minister of India going to Cellular Jail,

59:48

walking through those scary ramparts where you can literally, if you are sensitive,

59:55

you can hear the howls and screams of all those people. And to also sit in Savarkar’s cell and pay his tribute,

1:00:02

just that one iconic symbol, I think does a lot to make people curious at least.

1:00:08

Saying who is this person to whom the Prime Minister of India is going and paying obeisance to?

1:00:14

And I think those who are opposed to him by time and again raking up his issue or calumnizing him,

1:00:20

they are further arousing curiosity, particularly among the young people,

1:00:26

because as I said earlier, I think the forbidden fruit is always the tastiest. So, the more you berate someone,

1:00:32

the more the curiosity among people to know what is the truth, is it really what is made out to be?

1:00:38

So, I think there is a renewed interest in the man, his legacy, what he stood for.

1:00:43

He had failings, a lot of them, and in my books have been quite brutal even about his failings, but an understanding of the person.

1:00:50

The last biography Ranveer of his, in English at least, was written when he was alive in the 1960s

1:00:55

by Dhananjay Keer. From then till now, so many biographies of Gandhi, Nehru, all these people, and rightly so.

1:01:02

You must revaluate historical characters, but Savarkar was never open

1:01:07

for revaluation and assessment. He was literally a persona non grata. Any talk about him,

1:01:13

you would even lose your job. So, someone of the eminence of Pandit Hridaynath Mangeshkar

1:01:18

in the 1960s, since Savarkar was a prolific poet in Marathi

1:01:24

and the Mangeshkar family was very close to him. So, some of Savarkar's poems which are iconic in Marathi,

1:01:30

‘Jayostute Shree Mahanmangale Shivaspade Shubhade’ and there's this other very moving poem,

1:01:36

‘Ne Majasi Ne Parat Matrubhumi La, Sagara Pran Talmalala.’ So, all these poems,

1:01:42

Hridaynath Mangeshkarji had tuned and Sagara Pran Talmalala was particularly,

1:01:47

it was sung by Lataji and Ashaji and all the sisters, Mangeshkar sisters. And can you believe it?

1:01:53

For that crime of actually picking up his poem and this was independent India, in the 60s.

1:01:58

He got a show-cause notice from All India Radio where he was working saying can you explain why you chose this?

1:02:05

So, we had this conversation of someone being a persona non grata so just an illustration saying what is the level

1:02:12

of demonization of a human being? So, Hridaynathji gets this show-cause notice

1:02:17

and in return, very nonchalantly he says, good poem, great poet

1:02:22

and that should be reason enough to pick the poem, tune it and sing. What was the general emotion in the poem?

1:02:27

Well, that was, Savarkar had written it while he was in London.

1:02:34

He was on the seashore in Brighton and he was so overwhelmed with emotion

1:02:40

and he chides the ocean, the sagara saying you cheated me and brought me here

1:02:46

saying I'll get better education and I can be of some use to my motherland. But I am here, stuck here,

1:02:52

and not being able to do what I do. The revolutionary movement had unraveled by then. So, there was a lot of frustration that was built up.

1:02:58

So, his friend Niranjan Pal, Bipin Chandra Pal's son, who was with him, he says that almost extemporaneously,

1:03:07

he broke into tears and he composed this poem extempore and started singing it in his own way.

1:03:14

That poem Mangeshkarji tuned in a different way. Now for that crime of doing that

1:03:21

and for the show-cause notice answer that he gave, he lost his job. In less than a week,

1:03:26

he was sacked from All India Radio. And that is the freedom of expression, liberty, all of that, that we talk of,

1:03:33

that in a democracy, as I said earlier, even for these historians and others,

1:03:38

you can have differences of opinion, you can have a differing viewpoint, but even a discussion around that is not possible.

1:03:44

Today, at least we are having a mainstream conversation on this. A publisher like Penguin

1:03:49

has the gumption to publish a two-volume biography on him.

1:03:54

In the 60s, I might have been put in jail or the book would have been banned or anything like this would have happened.

1:04:00

So obviously, when the people who are in the creative space, they know the mind of the ruler,

1:04:06

that you do anything, you are going to face it, the consequences

1:04:12

with loss of livelihood, loss of job and all that, who would want to venture into that? And that is why many of them, including Savarkar,

1:04:18

became unsung heroes. And several things that came out in the course of the research of this book.

1:04:25

Do we even know, particularly in Maharashtra, just as we had the 1984 anti-Sikh riots,

1:04:31

the horrific riots in Delhi. In 1948, just flip the digits. You had an anti-Maharashtrian Brahmin carnage

1:04:39

-across Maharashtra, -Really? Spearheaded by several goons of the Congress.

1:04:46

This was as a retaliation against Gandhi's murder. The same people who were singing songs

1:04:53

of nonviolence and ahimsa when their leader was assassinated,

1:04:58

and that is a horrible crime. No condoning of that. The crime is perpetrated

1:05:05

against members of the caste to which Godse belonged which was a Maharashtrian Brahmin. So, several Maharashtrian Brahmins

1:05:14

were killed in different parts of Maharashtra. They lost their property. There was ethnic cleansing of several villages.

1:05:20

No cases filed, none of it. So, I put out on Twitter, in fact, saying I'm doing something on this

1:05:25

and if you have family stories, can you give it to me? I was deluged with information

1:05:31

that came from everyone saying this happened to my grandmother, my grandfather, my uncle, my this and that.

1:05:36

I also interviewed a couple of people who are in their 90s who were eyewitnesses to what happened

1:05:43

and horrific tales as to how in those 2 weeks or so of mayhem

1:05:49

following Gandhi's murder so many of them lost everything that they had for no crime of theirs just because they belonged to the same community

1:05:56

and the police didn't register FIRs. There was no justice to all these people.

1:06:02

And just think of it. History, they say, repeats itself if you were not listening for the first time.

1:06:07

If I think we as a nation or as a government, if we had taken a strong stand against this that if someone is a political leader, is assassinated,

1:06:14

members of the community of the assassin should not face this kind of music.

1:06:21

Maybe the anti-Sikh riots would not have happened and many people would have been saved after what happened to Indira Gandhi.

1:06:27

But then we've let all this under the table. But interestingly, Ranveer.

1:06:32

I asked the people whom I interviewed, if I could put out their identity out in public.

1:06:39

90% of them said we'd prefer to be anonymous because the perpetrators of the crime,

1:06:47

their descendants and their whatever associates are still in positions of a lot of power in Maharashtra

1:06:54

and outside. These were obviously, Maharashtrians themselves. -Yes, yes. -Maharashtrians killing. -Other Maharashtrians. -Yes, yes.

1:07:00

But then their successors are still very politically powerful. So, we have moved on.

1:07:05

We've rebuilt our lives which were shattered in the aftermath of this. We want to give you the information

1:07:12

but please let us remain anonymous and let us be happy in our lives which we have rebuilt.

1:07:17

So, I think, history also offers you that space to heal the wounds of the past.

1:07:24

And we need to do that with our history. It's not just recent history. All the other atrocities,

1:07:29

right from the ancient times, whatever, when we fabricate, when we do subterfuge,

1:07:35

when we whitewash crimes, particularly of genocides, of murders, of all of that,

1:07:41

I think that somewhere that unhealed energy keeps coming out and affecting future generations.

1:07:46

We need a truth and reconciliation with our history. It's not revenge stories.

1:07:51

It's not retribution. It's not demonizing somebody or a community or group.

1:07:57

Just make peace with your past, get done with it, and I think, move on to build a better future.

1:08:03

History should give us that very important lesson as to how these mistakes of the past

1:08:09

should never occur again. How long did the British rule over India, roughly?

Why our independent generation needs healing?

1:08:14

-200 plus, 250. -Yeah. -Yes. -But we weren't independent for the last 1000 years.

1:08:20

Yeah. True, true. So, our generation is basically, the first independent Indian generation.

1:08:26

-True. -Which is what a lot of young people -fail to understand. -Yeah. Maybe because we've not sensed, not perceiving freedom.

1:08:33

-What that feels like. -True. You take freedom for granted. And I've learned about freedom

1:08:38

through the Special Forces soldiers that I've seen on the show who served in places like Sudan.

1:08:44

Where freedom isn't a thing for those people in everyday life. So, you start valuing what you have as an Indian.

1:08:51

And that's made me think about what lessons we should learn from the past. This divide and rule situation

1:08:57

has been used against us -for a thousand years. -True. Not just by the British, by everyone who ever invaded.

1:09:03

They turned one brother against the other. And we're kind of seeing a repeat of that even now

1:09:08

on places like Twitter -with left wing versus right wing. -True. That India's biggest problem right now

1:09:15

is probably happening from inside the country. -Where two sides are fighting each other. -Yeah.

1:09:20

Rather than understanding that we're the fastest growing economy in the world and we should be looking outward and figuring out

1:09:27

how to sell Indian products and services, make money and become a richer country,

1:09:33

-which is actually what China has done. -Yeah. They've become rich first, -then become powerful. -Yeah. But China has managed to do that, Ranveer,

1:09:40

because they've set the grand China narrative and they've made peace with their past. They have told the stories of their past

1:09:47

in the way it needs to be told. We did not do that. I think even for an individual,

1:09:53

if you have had a troubled past growing up years, you have your inner child healing,

1:09:58

all of that, that needs to happen. So, it's same with a nation and a civilization. Anything that is wounded needs healing.

1:10:06

Only then you can move ahead with confidence, with closure. If that doesn't happen,

1:10:13

then the ghosts of the past will keep hurting you will keep coming by your backside,

1:10:18

and there's no way you can escape. You can push it away for some time, but it will come again. So, I think we have not done that.

1:10:24

And as I said, when you cover up something and you think you put all the muck under the carpet

1:10:29

and you put some deodorant on it and the stench won't raise,

1:10:34

that is the wrong way of going about things. It will, once the deodorant’s power comes down,

1:10:41

the stench is going to show up and we need to have, as I said, an honest assessment of our past.

1:10:48

Make complete peace with it. Tell the truth as it is. Don't look at history as a tool

1:10:54

for contemporary political correctness or think that this edifice of national unity

1:11:02

as you see it, or social cohesion, it cannot rest on the faulty foundations

1:11:08

of fabricated history. So don't think if you say the truth, some community today will get affected

1:11:16

or they will feel bad. So, we need to cover up. We need to make stories up. That never helps.

1:11:21

Say things as they are and move ahead. Wow, you have a lot to share, man. I'd love to actually unpack

1:11:28

a little more in our next conversation. I think you have stuff to share even beyond the British

1:11:34

and beyond the Indian freedom struggle. You're a fan of history, just like the watchers and listeners of this show.

1:11:42

So, any final message to the people who've listened till this point?

1:11:48

I thought, I gave my farewell speech already. -About how... -Maybe you may... Maybe you can just tell people how to support you more.

1:11:54

I'm probably assuming that you're active on Twitter. -Yes, yes. That's your social platform. Instagram a little bit.

1:12:00

-Okay. -Not so much of an Insta person. But more on Twitter. Yeah, and I think reading helps.

1:12:07

‘Jnanam Paramam Balam’ as my alma mater, BITS Pilani, had that as the tag-line,

1:12:13

and I truly believe in it. Knowledge is power supreme. So, the more you read,

1:12:18

read every shade of opinion, keep the windows of your mind open,

1:12:24

particularly when it comes to a subject like history. And those viewers who are interested in history,

1:12:29

they should read left, right, center, whatever ideology the writer is,

1:12:34

and imbibe differing viewpoints and make up your own mind. So, I mean, I'm not evangelizing my book

1:12:40

and say all of you should read my Savarkar book. You read them at the same time, you read also someone who's written

1:12:46

an inimical biography of his or a book of his, and you make up your mind. After reading all of that,

1:12:52

what you make of the person or of the other, you know this Bravehearts of Bharat. You read other people

1:12:57

who have written about maybe the same person, and make up your own mind. You can love to love somebody

1:13:03

or love to hate someone, but let your love or hatred be informed. Let it not be based on rhetoric,

1:13:10

on assumptions, on misnomers, political propaganda. And what your relatives have told you.

1:13:15

What your relatives and your peers have told you. Or what social media informs you. Use this important tool

1:13:23

which God has given us to make up your own mind on the basis of information. Informed opinion is always powerful,

1:13:31

and that is my only message to everyone who's tuned in. All right, thank you, sir. Thank you. Thank you, so much.

1:13:37

That was the episode for today. Amongst a bunch of these history-related topics, sir also spoke to me about his life in the modern day,

1:13:45

how he's criticized for a lot of his work, how he's trolled, how he is subjected

1:13:52

to a lot of online hate because he's trying to really uncover aspects of history that aren't out there yet.

1:13:59

I feel history all over the world is being rewritten. The Indian Freedom Movement should also be rewritten in some aspects.

1:14:07

That's the one thing I've got to learn through this podcast, not just this episode, but this podcast in general,

1:14:12

talking to people like Abhijit Chavda, talking to people like Vikram Sampath, it's been a reeducation process for me.

1:14:19

And through my reeducation, I hope that even you, the listener, the viewer, gets reeducated.

1:14:26

Because we're in charge of this beautiful country now. We owe it to the people who helped us gain freedom once again

1:14:35

let's relearn history and let's put forward the new proof-backed history

1:14:41

that we're learning through these great historians. For more episodes like this, make sure you follow us on Spotify.

1:14:47

Every episode is available on Spotify 48 hours before it's available anywhere else in the world. Make sure you download

1:14:53

Level SuperMind as well. It's my way of helping my country and my country's culture

1:14:58

and helping push it on a world stage. Make sure you check it out. It will benefit you in forming habits,

1:15:05

in learning about meditation, learning about yoga, and lots more. Until next time, guys.

1:15:11

I'm Ranveer. The Ranveer Show will be back. 🎶[Music]🎶

1:15:22

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