Risking Her Life in Gaza as a Christian Surgeon for Palestinians | Dr Ang Swee Chai | #705
Yah Lah But Podcast
110,981 views Aug 22, 2025 Yah Lah But Podcast
Orthopaedic surgeon Dr Ang Swee Chai recounts her arrest & interrogation in Singapore linked to her husband Francis’s escape, her decision to speak publicly about the 1982 Sabra & Shatila massacre in Beirut, Lebanon, and the consequences of speaking up for Palestinians.
𝙎𝙥𝙤𝙣𝙨𝙤𝙧: 𝙋𝙚𝙤𝙥𝙡𝙚’𝙨 𝘼𝙨𝙨𝙤𝙘𝙞𝙖𝙩𝙞𝙤𝙣 𝙔𝙤𝙪𝙩𝙝 𝙈𝙤𝙫𝙚𝙢𝙚𝙣𝙩 (𝙋𝘼𝙔𝙈)
𝘞𝘦 𝘴𝘱𝘰𝘬𝘦 𝘵𝘰 𝘋𝘳. 𝘑𝘢𝘯𝘪𝘭 𝘗𝘶𝘵𝘩𝘶𝘤𝘩𝘦𝘢𝘳𝘺 𝘵𝘰 𝘧𝘪𝘯𝘥 𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘮𝘰𝘳𝘦 𝘢𝘣𝘰𝘶𝘵 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘠𝘰𝘶𝘵𝘩 𝘊𝘩𝘢𝘳𝘵𝘦𝘳 𝘭𝘢𝘶𝘯𝘤𝘩𝘦𝘥 𝘣𝘺 𝘗𝘈𝘠𝘔 𝘢𝘴 𝘱𝘢𝘳𝘵 𝘰𝘧 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘍𝘶𝘵𝘶𝘳𝘦𝘠𝘖𝘜𝘵𝘩 𝘔𝘰𝘷𝘦𝘮𝘦𝘯𝘵.
𝘓𝘪𝘴𝘵𝘦𝘯 𝘵𝘰 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘧𝘶𝘭𝘭 𝘌𝘱𝘪𝘴𝘰𝘥𝘦 #632 | • Dr. Janil Puthucheary on Singapore’s Futur...
𝘝𝘪𝘦𝘸 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘗𝘈 𝘠𝘰𝘶𝘵𝘩 𝘊𝘩𝘢𝘳𝘵𝘦𝘳 | https://www.pa.gov.sg/youth-charter/
𝗙𝗶𝗻𝗱 𝗗𝗿 𝗔𝗻𝗴 𝗦𝘄𝗲𝗲 𝗖𝗵𝗮𝗶
From Beirut to Jerusalem by Ang Swee Chai | / 105188.from_beirut_to_jerusalem
Medical Aid for Palestinians | https://www.map.org.uk/
𝗢𝗻𝗲 𝗦𝗵𝗶𝗼𝗸 𝗧𝗵𝗶𝗻𝗴
Haresh: My Micro Cafe And Roastery In My HDB Flat After Being Retrenched | • My Micro Cafe And Roastery In My HDB Flat ...
Terence: Limitarianism: The Case Against Extreme Wealth by Ingrid Robeyns | / limitarianism
Dr Swee: Why Palestine?: Reflections From Singapore | https://www.ethosbooks.com.sg/product...
𝗦𝘂𝗯𝘀𝗰𝗿𝗶𝗯𝗲 𝘁𝗼 𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝘄𝗲𝗲𝗸𝗹𝘆 𝗻𝗲𝘄𝘀𝗹𝗲𝘁𝘁𝗲𝗿 – "𝗬𝗼𝘂𝗿 𝗟𝗶𝘁𝘁𝗹𝗲 𝗕𝗶𝘁”
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(00:00) On this episode...
(00:40) FutureYOUth Movement | PA Youth Charter
(01:30) Intro
(04:05) Activism and Human Rights
(07:08) Challenges & Discrimination in Medicine
(13:24) Marrying Francis Khoo
(15:55) Francis Khoo's Escape to the UK
(16:05) Getting Detained and Becoming a Refugee in the UK
(26:35) 1982 Israeli Invasion of Lebanon and Dr Swee's Awakening
(29:30) Enlisting to Be a Field Surgeon in Beirut
(31:59) Introduction to the Refugee Camp and Palestinian Red Crescent Society
(34:45) Discovering the Palestinian People
(35:44) Life in the Palestinian Camp
(37:34) Witnessing the Sabra and Shatila Massacre
(38:56) Realizing the Humanitarian Crisis
(44:34) Aftermath and Reflection
(50:33) Testifying in the Kahan Commission
(01:00:32) Religious Reflection and Conclusion
(01:05:19) Engaging with Opposing Views
(01:06:23) Gaza Conflict and Humanitarian Concerns
(01:08:29) Refugee Crisis and Historical Context
(01:09:31) Palestinian Identity and Global Perceptions
(01:13:07) Challenges in Addressing the Conflict
(01:13:54) Importance of Social Media and News Interpretation
(01:19:25) Personal Reflections and Activism
(01:32:46) Progress in Palestinian Advocacy
(01:36:58) One Shiok Thing
==
수이 차이 앙(Swee Chai Ang) 박사의 개인적 생애와 싱가포르 정부와의 갈등, 그리고 의사로서의 실존적 고뇌가 드러나는 맥락을 중심으로 분석했습니다.
<야 라 부(Yah Lah But)> 팟캐스트 - 수이 차이 앙 박사 인터뷰 요약 및 평론
1. 도입: 경계를 넘어선 의사이자 목격자의 구술사
본 텍스트는 싱가포르의 유명 팟캐스트 <야 라 부(Yah Lah But)>가 2025년 8월에 진행한 정형외과 의사 수이 차이 앙 박사의 인터뷰 녹취록이다
2. 인터뷰 내용 요약 — 체포, 망명, 그리고 두 개의 삶
가. 싱가포르에서의 체포와 영국의 난민이 되기까지
수이 차이 앙 박사의 삶을 뒤흔든 첫 번째 사건은 1977년 남편 프랑시스 쿠의 망명이었다
나. 베이루트행과 사브라·샤틸라 학살의 기억
1982년 레바논 전쟁 발발 당시, TV로 베이루트 폭격 영상을 보던 저자는 자신이 살던 싱가포르의 아파트와 닮은 고층 건물이 무너지는 모습에 큰 충격을 받았다
그곳에서 마주한 팔레스타인 인들은 테러리스트가 아니라 한없이 다정하고 존엄한 인간들이었다
다. 복음의 재해석과 지속되는 밤의 직업 <액티비즘>
영국으로 돌아온 저자는 동료들과 <팔레스타인 의료 지원 회(MAP)>를 설립했으나, 당국은 <팔레스타인>이라는 단어를 삭제하라고 압박하며 1984년 이 단체를 불법화하기도 했다
3. 평론 — 국가적 추방과 인류학적 귀환의 윤리
가. 국가권력의 폭력성과 시민권의 도구화
인터뷰에서 가장 충격적인 대목 중 하나는 싱가포르 정부가 수이 차이 앙 박사의 이중국적을 문제 삼아 시민권을 박탈한 일이다
나. 의료의 가치와 공공보건의 실존적 정치학
저자는 본래 안락하게 돈을 벌 수 있는 임상 의사의 길 대신에 전 국민의 영양과 주거를 바꾸는 공공보건(Public Health)을 지망했다가, 산업안전법을 비판했다는 이유로 대학 당국에 의해 쫓겨났다
다. 가짜 중립성(Fake Neutrality)의 가면을 벗기다
저자는 국제 적십자 위원회(ICRC)가 학살 당시 가자 병원의 외국인 의료진 24명만을 안전하게 철수시키기 위해 이스라엘 군과 무선 소통했던 일화를 강하게 비판한다
4. 결론: 깨어진 심장으로 이어가는 밤의 연대
<야 라 부> 팟캐스트 인터뷰는 수이 차이 앙이라는 한 거인 의사의 연약하면서도 단단한 내면을 가감 없이 보여준다. 저자는 자신이 세상을 바꾸는 대단한 혁명가가 아니며, 학살의 현장에서 고작 몇 십 명을 수술로 살리는 동안 수천 명이 죽어 나가는 것을 보며 무력감에 울었던 평범한 인간임을 고백한다
세진님, 팟캐스트 녹취록을 읽어보니 수이 차이 앙 박사님이 싱가포르 국적을 박탈당하는 과정에서의 당당함과, 성경을 다시 읽으며 보편적 인류애를 도출해 내는 지성의 깊이가 아주 인상적이었습니다. 추가로 알고 싶으신 맥락이 있다면 편하게 말씀해 주세요.
==
『Risking Her Life in Gaza as a Christian Surgeon for Palestinians』
Dr. Ang Swee Chai 인터뷰 요약+평론 (약 1,000단어)
자료: Yah Lah But Podcast 인터뷰 녹취록
요약
이 인터뷰는 『From Beirut to Jerusalem』의 저자인 스위 차이 앙 박사가 자신의 생애와 팔레스타인 연대 활동을 직접 회고하는 장시간 대담이다.
흥미로운 점은 이것이 단순히 팔레스타인 이야기가 아니라, 한 여성 의사와 기독교인이 어떻게 자신의 세계관을 바꾸게 되었는가를 보여주는 일종의 정신적 자서전이라는 점이다.
1. 싱가포르의 젊은 여성 의사
스위 차이 앙은 말레이시아 페낭에서 태어나 싱가포르에서 성장했다. 어린 시절부터 의사가 되고 싶어 했고, 공중보건에 관심이 많았다. 그녀는 의료를 단순한 직업이 아니라 사회정의를 위한 수단으로 이해했다.
그러나 당시 그녀는 정치 운동가가 아니었다.
오히려 보수적 기독교 환경에서 자랐으며, 성경교육을 통해 이스라엘을 하나님의 선택된 민족으로 이해하는 전형적인 복음주의적 관점을 가지고 있었다.
인터뷰에서 그녀는 젊은 시절 자신이 "이스라엘을 전적으로 지지했다"고 회상한다. 이는 후일의 모습과 매우 대조적이다.
2. 남편 Francis Khoo 사건
그녀의 삶을 바꾼 첫 번째 사건은 남편 Francis Khoo와의 결혼이었다.
Francis는 싱가포르 정부의 정치적 탄압을 피해 영국으로 망명한 인권변호사였다.
스위 차이 앙은 남편이 체포될 수 있다는 사실을 알면서도 결혼을 선택했다.
결혼 후 실제로 그녀 자신도 체포되어 장시간 심문을 받는다. 인터뷰에서는 3일 밤낮 동안의 조사와 독방 경험을 회상한다.
이 경험은 그녀에게 국가권력과 인권 문제를 새롭게 생각하게 만든다.
3. 1982년 레바논 전쟁
결정적 전환점은 1982년 레바논 전쟁이었다.
당시 그녀는 런던에서 정형외과 전문의 수련을 받고 있었다.
어느 날 텔레비전에서 레바논 폭격 장면을 본다.
고층 건물들이 무너지고 민간인들이 죽어가는 모습을 보면서 그녀는 충격을 받는다.
특히 그녀는 당시에도 여전히 친이스라엘적 시각을 가지고 있었음을 솔직하게 인정한다.
그러나 한 가지 질문이 머릿속을 떠나지 않았다.
"왜 어린아이들이 죽어야 하는가?"
이 질문이 그녀를 의료 자원봉사에 참여하게 만든다.
4. 팔레스타인 사람들과의 만남
베이루트에 도착했을 때 그녀는 팔레스타인 사람들에 대해 거의 알지 못했다.
놀랍게도 인터뷰에서 그녀는 "팔레스타인이라는 민족이 존재하는지도 몰랐다"고 고백한다.
지도에는 이스라엘만 있었고, 팔레스타인 사람들의 역사도 배우지 못했다.
난민촌에서 생활하며 그녀는 처음으로 팔레스타인 가족들을 만난다.
그들은 그녀를 가족처럼 받아들였다.
함께 식사하고, 집을 재건하고, 아이들을 돌보며 살아가는 난민들의 모습을 보게 된다.
그녀는 이 과정에서 "팔레스타인을 사랑하게 되었다"고 표현한다.
5. 사브라·샤틸라 학살
인터뷰의 중심은 사브라·샤틸라 학살이다.
1982년 9월, 이스라엘군이 베이루트를 포위한 상황에서 팔랑헤 민병대가 난민촌에 진입한다.
병원 의료진은 처음에는 전투원 부상자를 예상했다.
그러나 실제로 들어온 환자들은 대부분 민간인이었다.
노인, 여성, 어린이들이 총상을 입고 실려 왔다.
특히 그녀가 기억하는 장면은 한 어머니와 아기의 이야기다.
둘 다 총상을 입고 병원에 도착했는데 혈액이 한 팩밖에 남지 않았다.
의료진은 누구에게 수혈할 것인지 결정해야 했다.
어머니는 자기 대신 아기에게 혈액을 사용하라고 말했다.
그러나 결국 두 사람 모두 죽었다.
이 장면은 인터뷰 전체에서 가장 강렬한 대목이다.
6. 세계관의 변화
사브라·샤틸라 이후 그녀의 종교관도 바뀐다.
어린 시절 배운 기독교는 이스라엘 중심적이었다.
그러나 학살 현장에서 그녀는 전혀 다른 질문을 던진다.
"하나님은 누구의 편인가?"
그녀는 결국 하나님은 특정 국가의 편이 아니라 고통받는 인간의 편이라는 결론에 도달한다.
이후 그녀는 Medical Aid for Palestinians(MAP) 창립에 참여하며 평생 팔레스타인 의료지원 활동을 계속하게 된다.
평론
1. 이 인터뷰의 가장 큰 가치
이 인터뷰의 핵심 가치는 정치적 주장보다 자기변화의 과정에 있다.
스위 차이 앙은 처음부터 친팔레스타인 활동가가 아니었다.
오히려 정반대였다.
보수적 기독교인으로서 이스라엘을 지지했고 팔레스타인 사람들에 대해 거의 몰랐다.
그런 사람이 현장을 경험하며 생각을 바꾸게 된 과정이 설득력을 만든다.
독자는 그녀의 결론보다 변화 과정을 신뢰하게 된다.
2. 피해자 중심 서사의 전형
세진님께서 자주 다루시는 제주4·3, 위안부 증언, 형제복지원 구술사와 비슷한 특징도 보인다.
거대한 정치 논쟁보다 개별 인간의 고통을 중심에 놓는다.
아이의 죽음, 어머니의 선택, 난민의 일상 같은 이야기가 독자의 감정을 움직인다.
이러한 방식은 강력하지만 동시에 정치적 균형성을 약화시키기도 한다.
3. 종교적 의미
이 인터뷰에서 특히 흥미로운 것은 기독교적 성찰이다.
그녀는 복음주의적 친이스라엘 신학에서 출발했다.
그러나 현장 경험을 통해 "고통받는 자와 함께하는 하나님"이라는 해석으로 이동한다.
이 점은 단순한 정치 변화가 아니라 신학적 변화였다.
따라서 그녀를 단순히 친팔레스타인 활동가로만 보는 것은 부족하다.
그녀는 일종의 기독교 인권신학을 실천한 인물이라고 볼 수 있다.
4. 한계
반면 인터뷰에는 분명한 한계도 있다.
이스라엘 사회 내부의 다양한 목소리, 유대인의 역사적 공포, 레바논 내전의 복잡한 행위자들은 거의 다뤄지지 않는다.
그녀의 시선은 철저히 피해자와 의료인의 시선이다.
따라서 이 인터뷰만으로 중동 분쟁 전체를 이해할 수는 없다.
그러나 그것은 이 인터뷰의 목적도 아니다.
그녀는 역사학자가 아니라 현장 의사였기 때문이다.
종합 평가
이 인터뷰는 팔레스타인 문제에 대한 정치 강연이 아니다.
오히려 한 여성 외과의사가 전쟁과 학살을 목격하면서 자신의 신앙, 세계관, 삶의 방향을 바꾸어 가는 인간적 기록이다.
그래서 이 인터뷰의 가장 중요한 질문은 "누가 옳은가?"가 아니라,
<"고통받는 사람을 보았을 때 우리는 무엇을 해야 하는가?">이다.
그 질문이야말로 스위 차이 앙이 40년 넘게 계속 던지고 있는 질문이며, 이 인터뷰가 지금도 많은 독자와 청취자에게 깊은 울림을 주는 이유이다.
==
In this video
Chapters
Transcript
Chapter 1: On this episode...
0:00We were married 2 weeks. The knock on the door came and Francis they we just wait until they kick open the door. I said no we don't wait you run. He said
0:088 secondsrun away from government. I said yeah I grew up a Sunday school teacher and supported Israel with all my heart but how come they're doing that? And
0:1616 secondssomewhere along the line a young mother broke through the cauldron of machine gun with her baby. Gave it to me. Then in the flesh one of the soldiers of
0:2525 secondsmilitia or I would call them killers forced her to take her baby back. I came back to the camp looking for the mother and baby. The people along the side of
0:3434 secondsthe road were all gunned down and somebody say Dr. Sui, the mother and the baby were both killed.
Chapter 2: FutureYOUth Movement | PA Youth Charter
0:4141 secondsIf you care about the future of Singapore, this one's for you. The People's Association Youth Movement wrapped a 15-month journey called the
0:4848 secondsFuture Youth Movement, gathering thoughts, challenges, and hopes from over 127,000 young voices across Singapore. And it wasn't just a
0:5656 secondscampaign. It led to the PA Youth Charter, a document shaped entirely by those voices, not drafted in isolation or just by a small group of select
1:051 minute, 5 secondspeople. This is by youth for youth. To dig deeper, listen to episode 632 of Yalabat. We spoke to Dr. January,
1:131 minute, 13 secondschairman of the panel of advisers to PAM Council about what this means for youth, for PAM, and for Singapore's next
1:201 minute, 20 secondsdecade. The link is in the show notes along with the link to the youth charter itself. So, please check them out. And now onto the podcast.
Chapter 3: Intro
1:311 minute, 31 secondsWhat's up everybody? Welcome to another episode of Yala, your thrice weekly podcast where we talk
1:381 minute, 38 secondsabout the hottest news with a touch of what, Terrence? Good old humor. Good old humor, man. Uh, today is a very special episode. Yes.
1:461 minute, 46 secondsSomeone who we've been wanting to get on for quite a while.
1:491 minute, 49 secondsYeah. And and you know, we've we've read about her.
1:521 minute, 52 secondsWe've we've heard a lot about her as well. Yeah.
1:541 minute, 54 secondsBut to actually have her in front of us is quite something quite amazing.
1:591 minute, 59 secondsYeah. Yeah. And I mean we we we just want to extend a warm welcome to Dr. Sui uh orthopedic um founder of medical aid
2:082 minutes, 8 secondsfor Palestinians and an activist even though she doesn't like the term. Right. Welcome to Yalabat Dr.
2:152 minutes, 15 secondsThank you so much for having me and hello everybody.
2:182 minutes, 18 secondsYeah. Yeah. So maybe you can start off like why why do you not like the word activist or why do you not like being called an activist?
2:252 minutes, 25 secondsNo no no accepted being called that but it's not something which I aim to can you imagine if my mother sent me to
2:332 minutes, 33 secondsmedical school and all the years of studying and the noble aims of saving lives and grow up to be an activist.
2:422 minutes, 42 secondsYeah. go and get yourself in prison and deported and speaking at demos police, you know, threatening to shut you down. That's the activist, right?
2:522 minutes, 52 secondsSo, but yeah, but but I am an activist. Okay.
2:592 minutes, 59 secondsAlthough an elderly one.
3:033 minutes, 3 secondsAnd and now you're you're currently back in Singapore for how long? Like you've been here for I arrived on Tuesday.
3:103 minutes, 10 secondsOkay. and immediately went to the N US to talk to a group of medical students about what it means to be a doctor.
3:193 minutes, 19 secondsI think I really look forward to talking to them because you have no you know medicine has been very commercialized and become corporate. Okay.
3:303 minutes, 30 secondsBut somewhere along the line in the heart of every medical student they would have come to medical school with the same ideals I had many years ago.
3:393 minutes, 39 secondsYeah. So is to share some of that to help people you know to to help patients
3:473 minutes, 47 secondsto be part of humanity these are very basic right to be good to colleagues and so on now people are so corny you know talking
3:543 minutes, 54 secondsabout values we are forget it you know they're so oldfashioned it's not old fashion these are eternal values
4:024 minutes, 2 secondsand you know and health is a human right and many doctors forget Which means that it's not only treating
Chapter 4: Activism and Human Rights
4:114 minutes, 11 secondsdisease, also preventing it and also making the environment such that people
4:184 minutes, 18 secondswill have a way of maximizing their full potential apart from making money. Okay.
4:254 minutes, 25 secondsAnd things like that.
4:274 minutes, 27 secondsAnd and did you I mean you mentioned that when you first came into contact with the values of what being a doctor entails, but from young did you always
4:364 minutes, 36 secondsknow like you wanted to be a doctor? cuz I mean even your your your story is so interesting. Uh when did you first feel
4:444 minutes, 44 secondsthat you wanted to be a doctor? The first time I felt sick when you're sick, you know, ill. I don't know
4:514 minutes, 51 secondswhat I had. Horrible. Okay. And the doctor cured me.
4:554 minutes, 55 secondsSo for a child, you see, so that doctor can be almost a god figure. And you want to be able to do that. M
5:045 minutes, 4 secondsand and then it grew and then you read about doctors people like you know Schwitzer
5:135 minutes, 13 secondspeople like you know uh Norman Between I don't know where you know him you know and JS horn and uh you
5:225 minutes, 22 secondsknow Toyota people who actually step out of their basic technical profession to be human beings for other
5:315 minutes, 31 secondshuman beings. So wow. So I've totally kind of if I can be a doctor then by the
5:385 minutes, 38 secondstime you work through the medical system and then you realize that it is not all that because you are really not able to do much.
5:475 minutes, 47 secondsMhm.
5:485 minutes, 48 secondsYou can take our appendix kill or sore throat and that's about it. Okay.
5:535 minutes, 53 secondsMy teachers will get very angry when they hear me talk like that but that's true. You see?
5:585 minutes, 58 secondsSo upon my graduation and this was at N US.
6:026 minutes, 2 secondsYeah. N US I I grew up here. I was I was born in Pinang but I actually grew up here.
6:086 minutes, 8 secondsI decided after I qualified I said look I'm going to do public health because it have influence on everybody
6:176 minutes, 17 secondsyou know you vaccinate po population you cure so many things you change housing you feed people improve the nutrition
6:256 minutes, 25 secondsvalue and so on. So these are a combination of how to change society to enhance health for every individual
6:346 minutes, 34 secondsand plus it is special in the sense that you can't make money off public health right you can bring benefit so maybe a lot of
6:436 minutes, 43 secondspeople won't do that but that time in my naivity I thought it's wonderful so when I read the early books on how
6:526 minutes, 52 secondsyou know even prison health how to change the prison situation So that it become an institution that reform and
7:017 minutes, 1 secondgive prisoners a new start in life rather than punishing. Yeah.
7:067 minutes, 6 secondsSo all these are very noble aims. M so by the time I got my masters
Chapter 5: Challenges & Discrimination in Medicine
7:137 minutes, 13 secondsit ain't for me because the first thing I did was upset my head of department M because of what I wrote and then I was
7:227 minutes, 22 secondscriticizing our industrial laws. So people got upset you know and so on and so on you know
7:307 minutes, 30 secondsdoing surveys on health workers you know how they get anemia poor living condition and so on. So I was told better go and look for another job.
7:397 minutes, 39 secondsThe good thing about medicine, you almost can do anything. Yeah.
7:437 minutes, 43 secondsSo I went back to hospital. I told my my old teachers and say I want to come back
7:507 minutes, 50 secondsand and so I came back starting as um a medical officer
7:587 minutes, 58 secondswith Jimmy Chu. Yeah. And and also Pacy Chaa, you know. And I I decided I want to be a surgeon
8:068 minutes, 6 secondsbecause it's as far away from public health as you can be because it's very individualized. Okay.
8:118 minutes, 11 secondsYou treat one person, you operate on them and because of that you know it will be one to one.
8:188 minutes, 18 secondsIt no government, no stepping on toes, no threats, you know, it's just nobody can object to me helping one patient. M
8:268 minutes, 26 secondsm but even in the comfort of clinical medicine in a shelter environment
8:358 minutes, 35 secondsit still happen because the inequality of wealth results in the inequality of
8:448 minutes, 44 secondshealth basic and a doctor cannot run away from it so that's how and of course I chose orthopedics
8:528 minutes, 52 secondsI don't know how many orthopedic surgeons are familiar with you're supposed to have the strength of an ox.
8:598 minutes, 59 secondsYeah. And the brain of a gorilla. That will do. Actually, it's not true at all.
9:049 minutes, 4 secondsBut I I love doing it because you fix things, you know.
9:089 minutes, 8 secondsSo, like I say in my book is a combination of cooking, you know, and you know, cleaning up things and using
9:169 minutes, 16 secondsyour hands and your patient come in all smash up.
9:209 minutes, 20 secondsYou spend a lot of hours putting them together and they go home. Mhm.
9:249 minutes, 24 secondsVery good. M and then stops you don't think about whether they got home to go to
9:309 minutes, 30 secondswhich is very very important because in the UK we had
9:389 minutes, 38 secondsuh a big episode of three terrorist attack on the same day the 77 we just
9:469 minutes, 46 secondscommemorated the 20th anniversary and when I look back on those group of patients we spend a lot of time with
9:539 minutes, 53 secondsthem but the hospital are secure Oh, nobody bomb my hospital. We have lots of doctors. We got blood.
10:0010 minutesWe got everything. We treat them. They got home to go to, a job to go back to. They've had all this.
10:0810 minutes, 8 secondsBut then my mind goes back to the other set of patient I have where our hospitals are destroyed, doctors
10:1610 minutes, 16 secondsarrested, and my patients have no home to go back to and in fact no future of any kind. Maybe we can address that later. And I'm of
10:2510 minutes, 25 secondscourse talking about the Palestinians, about Lebanon, about Gaza and the West Bank.
10:2910 minutes, 29 secondsYeah. Because timeline wise and and correct me if I'm wrong. You started your medical practice in Singapore and
10:3510 minutes, 35 secondsthen uh 1982 was your first um interaction with the Palestinians which has been you spoken a lot about and we
10:4210 minutes, 42 secondswant to get to. Um and then you became an autotopedic in the UK. Uh that was where you you got your No, no, no. It came from Singapore.
10:5210 minutes, 52 secondsSingapore. Okay. Okay.
10:5310 minutes, 53 secondsI you know when I came back to medicine and of course you you know for a training of a young doctor you got to do
11:0111 minutes, 1 secondsurgery as well as medicine you got to go all around you see.
11:0511 minutes, 5 secondsAnd I remember I was working in the university and that time there's a wonderful young doctor. No, in fact she
11:1411 minutes, 14 secondswas a consultant only consultant at the time. Woman also beat surgeon just came back from Australia and she she is she's still alive. God bless her and love her.
11:2511 minutes, 25 secondsYeah. She taught me hand surgery and I was very junior you know really green and 3:00 a.m. there's this man come.
11:3411 minutes, 34 secondsThat's where industrial law come in.
11:3711 minutes, 37 secondsThe machines are not guarded. You know when you use a fast moving machine, you're supposed to guard it. It's not guarded. So he put his hand and the whole thing is crushed.
11:4611 minutes, 46 secondsSo me panic, you know, I can't handle it. And so Dr. Son came in about 2 3:00 a.m. in the morning and uh she said,
11:5511 minutes, 55 seconds"Don't panic." Okay, we talked to the patient first. And she talked to the patient. Then she showed the patient his
12:0212 minutes, 2 secondshand. Of course, the patient almost fainted. Okay. And we said look here we are going to make it as good as you can.
12:1112 minutes, 11 secondsIt will never be normal but you have to trust us that we do everything we can to make it work. Not perfectly but useful.
12:2012 minutes, 20 secondsSo you know when someone actually takes you under her wing and nurture you like that there's no escape. Mhm.
12:2912 minutes, 29 secondsSo you know so after years and years of just doing general orthopedics trauma related hip and knee replacement finally
12:3812 minutes, 38 secondswhen I'm I'm old enough my colleague say actually you don't have to do all this you know like nailing the feur and so on
12:4512 minutes, 45 secondscome at 3 why don't you be a hand surgeon I said interesting that's what I started orics to do.
12:5112 minutes, 51 secondsOh so that's why I'm a hand surgeon. I see.
12:5412 minutes, 54 secondsI see. Okay. Okay. Okay. And and so you were practicing and and um I know you also broke some barriers in the UK when
13:0313 minutes, 3 secondsit came to your practice, but along the way 1982 was when you had your first first awakening if I could call it and
13:1113 minutes, 11 secondsand maybe can share a bit more about that because I think that sets uh the context for everything else we're going to discuss.
13:1713 minutes, 17 secondsOkay. What happened was I arrived in UK as a refugee. No, no, no. the wife of a refugee.
Chapter 6: Marrying Francis Khoo
13:2513 minutes, 25 secondsMy husband earns his money, earned his money by, you know, divorcing people, buying flats
13:3413 minutes, 34 secondsand so on. Commercial lawyer, but his hobby was human rights and in the context of Singapore in 1976,
13:4413 minutes, 44 seconds1977 was a very dangerous thing. M um but I always wanted to marry a man
13:5213 minutes, 52 secondswho wants to give his life. We are not so progressive. You can't marry a woman.
13:5613 minutes, 56 secondsOkay. Marry a man who wants to give his life to working for others. So the the the profession doesn't matter.
14:0414 minutes, 4 secondsBut the aspiration of this man has to be very important. So when I met him, I said actually he's a good man. Okay.
14:1114 minutes, 11 secondsdoesn't care about money and goes out, you know, put his life and career on the
14:1714 minutes, 17 secondsline to help others, you see. So, so I think I was in love with him when we met after a week or two.
14:2514 minutes, 25 secondsAnd so then people warned him that if you speak up like that, continue, you're going to be in big trouble.
14:3414 minutes, 34 secondsBut he said, "How can I not do it?" Yeah. And so we we got married in a hurry.
14:4114 minutes, 41 secondsSo my department you know also big decision. So Mr. Chu tell me wedding brought forward like how many months? I
14:4914 minutes, 49 secondssaid Mr. Chu is not like that. I want to marry him. I'm not pregnant. Okay.
14:5514 minutes, 55 secondsSo but at that time he had already some idea that okay he's already yeah he's going to be in prison. He think this is going to be prison. Didn't
15:0315 minutes, 3 secondsrealize I was the one who end up in prison. M because he ran away. Yeah.
15:0815 minutes, 8 secondsYeah. Two weeks. We're married. 2 weeks the knock on the door came and and Francis, you know, being a law
15:1615 minutes, 16 secondsabiding Singapore citizen, five generation Khan say, "We just wait until they kick open the door." I said, "No,
15:2415 minutes, 24 secondswe don't wait. You know, you run." You said, "Run away from government." I said, "Yeah, they have no right to break
15:3215 minutes, 32 secondsin and arrest you. Look at it. What have you done wrong? You know what you did is correct. I hope so. And you just go. I
15:4115 minutes, 41 secondswill stay here and I'll wait and see whether they actually break in the door. Mhm. So we went out by back door.
15:4815 minutes, 48 secondsOh yeah.
15:5015 minutes, 50 secondsAll the way down 11 flights. Okay. Hu flat. Okay. Yeah. And I waited and waited. Half past 8.
Chapter 7: Francis Khoo's Escape to the UK
15:5815 minutes, 58 secondsNobody broke open the door. So I went out on myself. I said maybe paranoia. Okay.
16:0316 minutes, 3 secondsAnd I think they followed me to the hospital and a month later when Francis didn't appear I was arrested to interrogate to find out where he was.
Chapter 8: Getting Detained and Becoming a Refugee in the UK
16:1416 minutes, 14 secondsSo he didn't go to prison I did.
16:1616 minutes, 16 secondsSo that night itself he how did he end up in the UK like how?
16:2116 minutes, 21 secondsOh okay. So he Yeah. Crossway Chinese New Year.
16:2616 minutes, 26 secondsOh 15th of February. You know how busy it was?
16:2916 minutes, 29 secondsYeah. Yeah. So he just slip across the crossway and then one of his dear friends bought him a ticket. Yeah.
16:3816 minutes, 38 secondsMany many stops and then he didn't go to UK. He went to somewhere else to stay with a friend. And and the friend say look you don't speak European you know
16:4616 minutes, 46 secondsyou speak English. Why don't you go to London?
16:5116 minutes, 51 secondsAnd so the next thing you know the security police told me your husband is in London now. Okay. You're going to join him, ask him to come back.
17:0017 minutesOtherwise, your future in Singapore is finished.
17:0217 minutes, 2 secondsThat was during the interrogation after they arrested you. Yeah.
17:0517 minutes, 5 secondsI I had I had three days and three nights of it in interrogation. That was the solitary confinement.
17:1317 minutes, 13 secondsYeah. In between they give you half an hour solitary. So, and sit there and cry and then they will cry. Oh my god. And then the interrogation is very cold.
17:2217 minutes, 22 secondsForget it. Don't frighten young people because then they say, "I don't want to do anything. I don't want to end my But but did that like at that point in
17:3117 minutes, 31 secondstime because you mentioned that you had already some run-ins with the law when you were outspoken about the trade policies and all.
17:3817 minutes, 38 secondsYeah. But those are okay. This in academic world. Yeah.
17:4117 minutes, 41 secondsYou write your thesis, you write your MSE, your dissertation, you teach medical student and your boss sometimes
17:4817 minutes, 48 secondshear you talking all this no stop. M you know we have a process or we had I
17:5617 minutes, 56 secondsdon't know Singapore now but you had a process of self censorship m and your seniors also try and get you
18:0318 minutes, 3 secondsout of trouble before you get pulled deeper deeper so professor h me up and say this is not going to do okay so
18:1118 minutes, 11 secondsso I advise you to do something else so he prevented me from being arrested on my own terms
18:1918 minutes, 19 secondsbut he didn't realize that I can be arrested on behalf of my husband. This is life. Okay. Yeah.
18:2718 minutes, 27 secondsYeah. So then after the interrogation like what what happened then
18:3418 minutes, 34 secondsI don't know what your your your viewers will think of that. So they cleared me.
18:3918 minutes, 39 secondsThey said doctor you actually a very good citizen. Okay. and your academic record is very good and you certainly
18:4718 minutes, 47 secondshave a place in Singapore, we will recommend that you go and persuade your husband to come back.
18:5618 minutes, 56 secondsMhm.
18:5618 minutes, 56 secondsBecause actually you have done nothing wrong. Isn't that great?
19:0119 minutes, 1 secondSo, so then release me and I got a first time I got a Singapore passport, you know, with my photograph in it.
19:1219 minutes, 12 secondsSo basically I took that passport I left Singapore
19:1819 minutes, 18 secondsbut within my heart I'm thinking how can we treat someone like this
19:2619 minutes, 26 secondsyou know when you're very young and where I did this thing now I I know anybody can treat anybody like that you know I I you know I've been to Gaza so
19:3619 minutes, 36 secondsmany times and it's totally different but at that time you see it's very traumatic you know at that you can arrest someone division one silver
19:4519 minutes, 45 secondsservant that's what I was okay and and put them under that kind you know
19:5319 minutes, 53 secondsinterrogation and after 24 hours 48 hours you have a cup of coffee and then
20:0020 minutesthe girl cast will bring you your curry rice with fish or something like that okay and how can you treat a citizen like that
20:0820 minutes, 8 secondsyeah so that's really an eye opener was it a feeling of a disappointment or because I I know that you the you want
20:1720 minutes, 17 secondsto stay rooted in Singapore and and Malaysia, right? So was what does it feel like at that point?
20:2320 minutes, 23 secondsYeah, actually life is very interesting when I decide that I'm going to stand up for Francis and marry him. That's the first step.
20:3320 minutes, 33 secondsYeah. But I actually thought that I'll be his wife if he gets arrested.
20:4020 minutes, 40 secondsOkay. Yeah. Under detention without trial. I thought I'm going to stand by him. That's why I married him or force
20:4720 minutes, 47 secondshim to marry me. So yeah, so that it makes me a kind of a woman of worth, the
20:5520 minutes, 55 secondswife of prisoner Francisco instead of some shady, you know, girlfriend, you know, kind of thing.
21:0221 minutes, 2 secondsAnd so I thought it's just like that. But now I got arrested because of him.
21:0821 minutes, 8 secondsCrazy. I was arrested from the hospital where I was operating you see.
21:1321 minutes, 13 secondsSo it is a sight of a society that I do not want to see.
21:2021 minutes, 20 secondsYeah. And but on the other hand I haven't got a choice either bring my husband back so that he can be arrested
21:3021 minutes, 30 secondsand then interrogated sign whatever confession. I signed a nine page 16 page confession and maybe he should confess
21:3821 minutes, 38 secondsbut I know my husband he's very very stubborn.
21:4321 minutes, 43 secondsEven if they don't want to beat him up he'll be so stubborn that he'll provoke it but he's stubborn.
21:4821 minutes, 48 secondsSo do I really want him to come back to sign a confession that he's part of the communist party of Malaya he's a Euro
21:5721 minutes, 57 secondscommunist and so on so forth which I know he was not. M he he was a paran boy who fears his
22:0522 minutes, 5 secondsmother and basically could be handpacked but not yet. Okay.
22:1222 minutes, 12 secondsYeah. So, so all these thoughts are going on my mind when I go to you see and then to think about it
22:2222 minutes, 22 secondsis Singapore was Singapore I can't say is because I don't know enough of Singapore now. Was Singapore a society
22:3022 minutes, 30 secondsthat was open and all of us have a place in it? Can we speak freely and can we
22:3822 minutes, 38 secondsfight for rights of everybody so that everybody notionally are equal? Mhm.
22:4322 minutes, 43 secondsOr are we developing into a society of increasing inequality? So that goes on and on. But at the same time I got my
22:5122 minutes, 51 secondshusband M you know who might not want to come home. Mhm.
22:5722 minutes, 57 secondsSo we met up in London and he was Francis as happy as a luck.
23:0123 minutes, 1 secondOkay. Very happy with an exact I I was living rough actually.
23:0823 minutes, 8 secondsSo he said I want to go Cornwall. You want to come with me? I said no I'm not going to Cornwall. You and I have to talk. So we discuss all this and
23:1923 minutes, 19 secondsso I said fine I'm going to be your wife and a wife's place is with her husband I'll stand by
23:2823 minutes, 28 secondsyou which means I give up my right of return that's it so I became a wife of a refugee
23:3623 minutes, 36 secondsand I mean even your the thought of giving up your career at that point of time I never thought about that of course that time is a big struggle getting into
23:4423 minutes, 44 secondsBritish establishment because in Singapore you you are a citizen of your country nobody discriminate professionally. M.
23:5323 minutes, 53 secondsSo when I want to do surgery, want to do orthopedics, nobody ask me why. You just got to work hard. You go to Britain, they look at you.
24:0224 minutes, 2 secondsDo you know orthopedic surgeons? They're the best in the society. They all play rugby.
24:0724 minutes, 7 secondsThey come from public school. You know you you like this.
24:1424 minutes, 14 secondsYou don't look the part.
24:1624 minutes, 16 secondsYou don't speak the part. Can you actually do all the big things? M so you got to fight that kind of discrimination. So that's okay. Small thing hard fight but I think I made it.
24:2724 minutes, 27 secondsSo I mean I mean of course it's now very obvious that you are never one to shy away from daunting things. But at that
24:3324 minutes, 33 secondspoint in time was it immediately don't tell me what I can't do I'm going to prove you wrong or was it just you just kept at it and things happened?
24:4224 minutes, 42 secondsWell I think a city is a very good teacher. M you know when someone tell you you can't
24:5024 minutes, 50 secondsdo something instead of say okay I won't do it do something else I'm that kind of say but why
24:5824 minutes, 58 secondsmhm yeah but why so now I tell my medical students because the the curriculum I'm talking about British student there only
25:0625 minutes, 6 secondstwo persons in this whole world that can stop you pursuing a career especially to the girls who want to be surgeons I said the first one is God can block a path.
25:1725 minutes, 17 secondsOkay. And you've got to accept it. Second one is yourself.
25:2225 minutes, 22 secondsYeah. If you decide to give up, nobody can stop you. If you decide to carry on, then you go for it. Mhm.
25:2825 minutes, 28 secondsSo, and I mean like you you did become the first female orthopedic consultant at uh Bishop Oakland University. No, no. St. Barcelo.
25:3725 minutes, 37 secondsOh, St. Barcelo. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 900 years.
25:3925 minutes, 39 secondsAh, yes. Okay. First woman. Okay. And that was in 1996. So that was a a big breakthrough. Um and I mean kudos to you
25:4825 minutes, 48 secondsfor for going down that path because I remember on on another interview you said there was a lot of chauvinism. Yeah. A lot a lot prejudice. Yeah.
25:5625 minutes, 56 secondsA lot. Um and I mean along the way that was 1996 but um 1982 was when you you had that awakening. That was when you
26:0526 minutes, 5 secondshad been in the UK for a few years already. Yeah. 5 years. 5 years.
26:0826 minutes, 8 secondsAnd actually I got into finally you know claw myself into a training career.
26:1326 minutes, 13 secondsYeah, which is basically if you just keep at it, you know, when you've done your training, you get your specialist certificate, you look for a consultant job.
26:2326 minutes, 23 secondsSo I was more or less settled. Then came Beirut. Yeah. Yeah.
26:2926 minutes, 29 secondsAnd maybe you can can share with us cuz I'm not so sure whether our listeners and all might be aware of the story, but I think it it is important what happened
Chapter 9: 1982 Israeli Invasion of Lebanon and Dr Swee's Awakening
26:3726 minutes, 37 secondsin 1982 that that made you answer the call. you know I I came back from St.
26:4526 minutes, 45 secondsThomas which is one of the rare prestigious hospital.
26:4826 minutes, 48 secondsM not not so you know like BS but you know good enough
26:5426 minutes, 54 secondsand I was training and I I got my part one. I went home and I saw a horrible
27:0227 minutes, 2 secondsscene of a plane many many war plananes dropping bombs on a country called Lebanon. M
27:0927 minutes, 9 secondsand the capital Lebanon Beirut has got many high-rise flats and that actually
27:1727 minutes, 17 secondsweird looks like the apartment that Francis and I left. Mhm.
27:2327 minutes, 23 secondsAnd left behind, you see, and was being bombed. And so we say, "What country was that?" Beirut.
27:3127 minutes, 31 secondsWho was doing this? Israel. Now, I grew up I grew up uh a Sunday school teacher
27:4027 minutes, 40 secondsand supported Israel with all my heart, you know, because Israel built our army.
27:4427 minutes, 44 secondsSo, I thought, you know, maybe I was wrong, but I know they did. And Israel in the Old Testament was the chosen
27:5227 minutes, 52 secondspeople of God. The Jews also suffered during the Second World War. And that
27:5927 minutes, 59 secondswas something which really you know which I don't want to see again. Okay. But how come they doing that?
28:0728 minutes, 7 secondsBut unfortunately I was surrounded with people who actually were completely supportive of Israel.
28:1428 minutes, 14 secondsSo anybody that crosses Israel have to be punished. Okay. So all my friends are like that Jewish and Christian alike. So the more I watched the worse it became
28:2328 minutes, 23 secondsand finally I asked myself who is God and who am I? What kind of God would sanction the killing of people
28:3228 minutes, 32 secondswho are basically not involved in this at all? Okay. Okay you want to go for PLO you do it but why do you killing
28:3928 minutes, 39 secondspeople like children, women, destroying their home, their hospitals. Why you do that? So the more it went on the more
28:4628 minutes, 46 secondspainful it gets. M and then came something which is very strange and then you know you ask and
28:5428 minutes, 54 secondsask you got no answer because you know there's always two sides it's very complicated you look up the map and and in the end
29:0329 minutes, 3 secondsit came like that we are all children of God and God loves us
29:1029 minutes, 10 secondsand are you prepared to help those who are suffering? Do you love them or you just engaging in a polamic in your mind?
29:2129 minutes, 21 secondsM what we call intellectual masturbation.
29:2429 minutes, 24 secondsM so that's very strange. I said no this is not theoretical.
Chapter 10: Enlisting to Be a Field Surgeon in Beirut
29:3129 minutes, 31 secondsSo when Christian aid you know I I donate to Christian a came around with an appeal asking for a surgeon to join
29:3929 minutes, 39 secondstheir team. I quit and Thomas's event went with my boss thought was mad you know he fought tooth and nail
29:4729 minutes, 47 secondsto get a woman you know a foreigner to get in the training scheme and you're up and go
29:5529 minutes, 55 secondsand you quit because it would have impacted your career or there was no way to do no way to do it they say you can't get six weeks off cannot
30:0430 minutes, 4 secondsbasically stop me going I said try me here's my notice and of Of course, I must have a husband
30:1230 minutes, 12 secondswhich I've chosen who agreed to support me.
30:1730 minutes, 17 secondsSo, he packed my bags and all that and cleared all the things, the bureaucracy, fill in the forms.
30:2430 minutes, 24 secondsAnd that time I was traveling with a refugee document. Mhm.
30:2830 minutes, 28 secondsBecause I'm a wife of a refugee. You see, so it makes it even more difficult.
30:3230 minutes, 32 secondsSo, I went and I don't know what I'm going to, but I know I'm going to do something. and to give all my skills to the children and
30:4130 minutes, 41 secondsthe people of Lebanon, be it who they may at least to help them.
30:4730 minutes, 47 secondsAnd in the end, you ended up in a Palestinian refugee camp.
30:5130 minutes, 51 secondsUh I ended up at field hospital, five floors on the ground because that's the only place where the bombs could not get at. M okay.
30:5830 minutes, 58 secondsAnd I was treating a lot of wounded children. children who are so traumatized that they won't eat, they won't talk and only people can tell me
31:0631 minutes, 6 secondsthat they lost their whole family, their homes and so on. Maybe no legs, you know, and wounded part of organs missing.
31:1431 minutes, 14 secondsSo is a tragic. And then I I dealt with cluster bombs. I dealt with phosphorus bombs, conventional bombs.
31:2331 minutes, 23 secondsAnd these are what I've never learned to deal with. M
31:3031 minutes, 30 secondsbut the the doctors of the area, you know, Lebanese doctors and Palestinian doctors just helped me along. I learned and with them.
31:4031 minutes, 40 secondsMhm.
31:4131 minutes, 41 secondsAnd of course, um about a couple of weeks after my arrival, the radio announced that the
31:4831 minutes, 48 secondsPalestine Liberation Organization is about to evacuate.
31:5431 minutes, 54 secondsThey have to evacuate because the war will continue. and destroy the whole of Lebanon.
Chapter 11: Introduction to the Refugee Camp and Palestinian Red Crescent Society
32:0032 minutesSo the Lebanese leaders and the Arab League kind of pleased with the PL to go and they agreed to go.
32:0832 minutes, 8 secondsBut but how soon upon landing there did you really start to question whatever preconceived notions you had?
32:1632 minutes, 16 secondsNo, no, no, don't question. I'm just there to do good work as a Christian. Okay. And I was still supporting Israel. Okay. Yeah.
32:2332 minutes, 23 secondsAnd because of the ceasefire, nobody kind of dropped bombs anymore.
32:3032 minutes, 30 secondsAnd I was approached by the Palestine Recreant Society whether I'm prepared to work in one of the hospitals and I got no idea what it is. Okay.
32:4032 minutes, 40 secondsM you know I'm was a Chinese Christian. I really wanted me to work in the red crescent you know but it's okay. So what
32:4732 minutes, 47 secondswas it? Then Tony were part of the international delegation of Red Cross and Red Crescent and we treat all need all people who need medical care free.
32:5932 minutes, 59 secondsFree is important because that's what the British NHS is.
33:0333 minutes, 3 secondsM poor and rich alike.
33:0533 minutes, 5 secondsThey don't ask for your credit card. You just come because that's the need.
33:0933 minutes, 9 secondsI said okay I work with you. So I went with the team and they took me to a
33:1633 minutes, 16 secondsbombed out place. Of course that time I didn't realize it's a remains of a Palestinian refugee camp
33:2333 minutes, 23 secondsto a high-rise building. The top two floors are blown up. The lower floors are shelled. And I met a team which
33:3133 minutes, 31 secondscalls themselves the PRCS. And that time because the PL is gone, it's all run by women.
33:3733 minutes, 37 secondsYeah. Arab women. and and I love them because they're lovely
33:4433 minutes, 44 secondspeople, you know. And so I they thought, well, they welcome me. And then we went
33:5133 minutes, 51 secondsto the second floor, patch up the holes, painted the walls and open the ITU and the orthopedic department.
34:0134 minutes, 1 secondAnd it was about 3 4 days in it that I decided to because you live in the hospital, there's nowhere else to live.
34:0934 minutes, 9 secondsOkay.
34:1034 minutes, 10 secondsI decided to come out of the hospital and find out what kind of place this is.
34:1434 minutes, 14 secondsSo I went out to the bombed out places, broken homes and I asked the people. I said, "Oh,
34:2234 minutes, 22 secondshave you come home?" I said, "Are you Lebanese?" They said, "No, we are Palestinian." My first reaction, "You mean PLO?" He said, "No, no, no, no. We
34:3134 minutes, 31 secondsare we are Palestinians." I said, "So Palestinian are the same as PLO." He said the PLO is our government.
34:4034 minutes, 40 secondsWe are the people.
34:4234 minutes, 42 secondsSo I didn't realize that there was a Palestinian people.
Chapter 12: Discovering the Palestinian People
34:4634 minutes, 46 secondsAnd then from there I learned about the history of how they became refugee in 1948 when they driven out and they find
34:5434 minutes, 54 secondsthemselves in refugee camps all over the Middle East. Sabar Shhat is just one of them.
35:0235 minutes, 2 secondsNot in the maps. Even today there's no Palestine or any maps, right?
35:0935 minutes, 9 secondsSo I took out my map and say you talk about Palestine where she said this one. I said no that's Israel you know like that
35:1835 minutes, 18 secondsbut you know it's strange you see and I realized that you know they are a people
35:2535 minutes, 25 secondsand a people like myself you know and a people who actually are loving are
35:3235 minutes, 32 secondsgenerous and it's kind you know and they they must have known that I support Israel you know
35:3935 minutes, 39 secondsbut yet they treated me as though I'm in their family they shared everything they have with me and they got nothing, you know, war rations. So the women will put
Chapter 13: Life in the Palestinian Camp
35:4835 minutes, 48 secondsa towel on the floor so I can sit there and not get myself all dusty and then make me Arabic coffee,
35:5635 minutes, 56 secondsshared with me the embroidery, everything, you know, and tell me the story how they became a refugee and how Palestine look like. And
36:0536 minutes, 5 secondsso it went on 3 weeks of hard work building up the ITU and the intensive care and bringing patients back from all
36:1336 minutes, 13 secondsover 11 and 3 weeks with the evening spent with the Palestinian family. So I was educated by them.
36:2236 minutes, 22 secondsSo So I mean at that point of time, how much do you know about the political situation that that of the of where you
36:3036 minutes, 30 secondswere entering into? like was it or you were just really focused on the medical side of things and how you can help people?
36:3636 minutes, 36 secondsYou know the bizarre thing is when I met the Palestinian people then I realized they're missing human
36:4336 minutes, 43 secondsbeings because for me life very simple Israel good po bad. M also so PL gone very good you know
36:5336 minutes, 53 secondspeople coming back because nasty PLO gone okay to rebuild their homes and me as a doctor I will help them very
37:0137 minutes, 1 secondvery simple so even at that stage apart from the fact that I actually start to love the Palestinian people
37:0937 minutes, 9 secondsI even did not realize that I'm loving the wrong side you know my husband actually analyzed that for me and he
37:1737 minutes, 17 secondsactually say that I think you fell in love with the Palestinian people. And I say, "Yeah, maybe I did." Okay.
37:2437 minutes, 24 secondsSo, so that would be okay because they're repainting their homes, waiting for the school to reopen, hoping that they'll be
37:3237 minutes, 32 secondssettled properly in Lebanon. Okay? And then 3 weeks after that, the BBC, my favorite BBC,
Chapter 14: Witnessing the Sabra and Shatila Massacre
37:4137 minutes, 41 secondsput on a news bulletin every hour that Israel is invading the Lebanon uh invading Beirut by land because the PL
37:5037 minutes, 50 secondsleft behind 2,000 fighters and they are coming in together. And I actually believed it. Nobody else did.
37:5837 minutes, 58 secondsEverybody else panicked. So I said, "Look, I said I I told Aziza, the director of Aziza, this is a fight
38:0638 minutes, 6 secondsbetween the PLO and Israel. It's nothing to do with us." And she didn't want to argue with me.
38:1438 minutes, 14 secondsOkay. So and she was with you on on the ground.
38:1738 minutes, 17 secondsYeah. She direct the hospital. Red Crescent have got nine hospitals. Eight of them flattered completely. Gaza
38:2538 minutes, 25 secondsstood, you know, because it's really a a robust building. It's built like fortress
38:3238 minutes, 32 secondsand so yeah so so I I was still that kind of mindset and the tanks came the
38:4038 minutes, 40 secondsairplane war plananes came and the shelling started and then our camp was surrounded by tanks and by this time we
38:4938 minutes, 49 secondsknow that everybody in the camp who's rebuilding their homes under US guarantee of a ceasefire
Chapter 15: Realizing the Humanitarian Crisis
38:5638 minutes, 56 secondscouldn't escape and in the hospital. We were expecting to see casualties,
39:0439 minutes, 4 secondsbut we thought it will be casualties of fighters wounded by the IDF.
39:1039 minutes, 10 secondsInstead, we got old men, old women, young men, teenagers, babies all brought in, killed.
39:1839 minutes, 18 secondsSo, something was very wrong.
39:2139 minutes, 21 secondsAnd then it became very hectic. We got hundreds of wounded and then we got very frightened people flocking into the
39:2839 minutes, 28 secondshospital thinking the presence of 24 foreigners would they were as you know kind of protection. Yeah.
39:3639 minutes, 36 secondsAnd at one point you know in between operating I told my Norwegian colleague who was operating we are team I said
39:4539 minutes, 45 secondslook I operate a mother and a child. I'm really worried about them because they were told to go to a safe building, but
39:5239 minutes, 52 secondsthen they shelled the building killing everybody except the mother and her baby. So I said, I'm going to have a look. Okay, I'll come back. I went up to
40:0140 minutes, 1 secondhave a look and I saw people all over the place as they got no food, no water left. I don't know what to do with them.
40:0740 minutes, 7 secondsThey're going to hunger and thirst. And I said, I want to find the mother and the baby. So I found them. Both were
40:1540 minutes, 15 secondsalive. and they needed blood and we have run out of blood. We only got one packet of uh emergency blood left.
40:2540 minutes, 25 secondsSo I told them to give it to the mother and mother said no no no because the baby would die. So she said I'm dying.
40:3440 minutes, 34 secondsPlease save my baby. She died.
40:3840 minutes, 38 secondsSo that was it. And then I found my own nurses. One of the nurse who is a Bangladesh
40:4540 minutes, 45 secondsnurse very highly qualified nurse who was wounded by sniper actually we operated on him and took his pancreas
40:5440 minutes, 54 secondsout and he was alive and our Swedish nurse was looking after him. They didn't shoot her, they shot him. Okay. Mhm.
41:0541 minutes, 5 secondsAnd at night, you know, the flares were lit up and machine gun fire continued.
41:1341 minutes, 13 secondsAnd even at that point, I just thought maybe PL was fighting uh IDF. None of our business. So, the
41:2141 minutes, 21 secondslast patient I treated was a 13 year old boy and he was shot together with 27 members
41:2941 minutes, 29 secondsof his family. They all died. He survived. He was brought in. the operation name.
41:3541 minutes, 35 secondsAnd that was on Friday night and early next morning
41:4441 minutes, 44 secondsuh what seems to be like soldiers came to our hospital ordering all foreigners out. Mhm.
41:5041 minutes, 50 secondsAnd at that point I said no once we leave they will come in and kill all our patients.
41:5641 minutes, 56 secondsSo my Norwegian nurse and a medical student volunteer to stay behind, refused to leave.
42:0542 minutes, 5 secondsAnd and basically she told me in English, if they kill us, the international red cross and embassies will get involved.
42:1442 minutes, 14 secondsM you just go with them otherwise all of us will kill.
42:1942 minutes, 19 secondsSo I went with them and I came out and I realized that people were killed by the dozens maybe hundreds
42:2742 minutes, 27 secondsand the bodies are still in the cam alley and on the side there are there are soldiers of different description
42:3642 minutes, 36 secondsrounding up a lot of people with machine gun and they couldn't escape and for that
42:4342 minutes, 43 secondstime I really realized for the first time that these people were being slaughtered and these on the side of the road are
42:5142 minutes, 51 secondsgoing to get killed. But I was worried about my patience and very very angry
42:5842 minutes, 58 secondsangry that how come I didn't know how come the world doesn't know?
43:0643 minutes, 6 secondsDon't they know there are nearly half a million refugees in Lebanon?
43:1243 minutes, 12 secondsThey are not PLO. And even if they were, how can they let them die? I begin to doubt, you know, and I was very angry
43:2043 minutes, 20 secondsbecause now I know that on every dead body will be a Palestinian ID card issued by United Nations
43:3043 minutes, 30 secondstelling them, telling us where they come from.
43:3343 minutes, 33 secondsPlaces in Palestine which don't exist anymore, but the women told me they came from.
43:4143 minutes, 41 secondsHow can that be?
43:4343 minutes, 43 secondsYeah. And what a way to learn about people through their death. And somewhere along the
43:5143 minutes, 51 secondsline, a young mother broke through the the cauldron of machine gun with a baby. Mhm.
43:5743 minutes, 57 secondsLittle baby carrying arms and gave it to me.
44:0244 minutes, 2 secondsSo you don't need to understand Arabic to know what's all about. M she expect herself to die but maybe
44:1044 minutes, 10 secondsbecause I'm a foreigner I will survive and I take the baby with me then in the flesh one of the soldiers or
44:1844 minutes, 18 secondsmilitia or I would call them killers force her to take her baby back
44:2444 minutes, 24 secondsthen we went on you see and after I was released from Israeli
44:3244 minutes, 32 secondsdetention I came back to the camp looking for the mother and me and I couldn't find them except that the
Chapter 16: Aftermath and Reflection
44:4244 minutes, 42 secondspeople along the side of the road were all gunned down because the press got heaps of pictures about them and I can tell by the clothes
44:5044 minutes, 50 secondsthey're wearing that these were the same people and somebody say Dr. Three, the mother and the baby were both killed.
45:0245 minutes, 2 secondsAnd they say the mother was pleading with the killers asking them to kill her
45:1045 minutes, 10 secondsbut leave her son, spare her son because baby, God will look after the baby. But they killed both.
45:1845 minutes, 18 secondsThat was 43 years ago. And if I did have the baby, he will be 43 years now. And
45:2545 minutes, 25 secondsfor one thing, I know he will be as beautiful as his mother. But he didn't have a chance.
45:3145 minutes, 31 secondsSo that's my introduction to the Palestinian people. And for once, I told myself
45:3845 minutes, 38 secondsthe PO should not have left. They could have defended their people.
45:4545 minutes, 45 secondsThat was what everybody said. Only I didn't I didn't buy that. Okay. Now I bought that. Too late.
45:5445 minutes, 54 secondsSo Christian 8 panic want to pull the whole team out. Okay.
46:0146 minutes, 1 secondSo I don't want to be pulled out. Okay.
46:0346 minutes, 3 secondsI want to stay there because I want to know what's it all about. Why my new friends were all butchered like that?
46:1046 minutes, 10 secondsWhat wrong have they done? So I went back to the camp every day. Gaza hospital was closed of course
46:1846 minutes, 18 secondsand the whole lot of the Red Crescent women thanks be to God were taken into custody by the International Red Cross
46:2646 minutes, 26 secondsso they are safe and I want to find out what's going on.
46:3146 minutes, 31 secondsWe came back every day take pictures talk to the survivor talk to the press
46:3846 minutes, 38 secondsand that's how it all started. M so that time I think I was no longer a doctor because hospital closed right
46:4746 minutes, 47 secondsChristian wants me to go back to UK I refuse so I'm no longer a humanitarian
46:5446 minutes, 54 secondsautoopedic consultant I'm just a busy body going around telling the story of the Palestinian
47:0147 minutes, 1 secondpeople but I think that's what I should do because there's nobody to tell their story so we should tell their story if
47:1047 minutes, 10 secondsit's highly incon convenient. It upsets me going through it again. Again, I'll do it. I'm still doing it now. Yeah. Mhm.
47:1847 minutes, 18 secondsBut you mentioned earlier that um the world didn't know about what all this was happening. I mean they knew later on after the camps open.
47:2747 minutes, 27 secondsYeah.
47:2847 minutes, 28 secondsBut back then I mean just to understand like back then like um the flow of information you know with press and
47:3747 minutes, 37 secondseverything was it I mean today we see everything on Instagram and Yeah. Yes. Live stream.
47:4147 minutes, 41 secondsYeah. But back then, how how was it if you wanted to get it out to the world? How would you do that?
47:4747 minutes, 47 secondsI I wanted Aziza to take the Arabic staff out because you know that's the
47:5547 minutes, 55 secondsnight before when the little boy came in. Yeah.
47:5847 minutes, 58 secondsMurdered. So I said, "Arisa, you better do something about this.
48:0448 minutes, 4 secondsI will continue operating." Yeah. She was so kind. She took some gave me some olives and some bread and
48:1148 minutes, 11 secondssaid this is the last bit of food in the hospital but please eat it. And
48:1848 minutes, 18 secondsso she will have to radio out to the ICRC to tell the ICRC that we have 24 nationalities in Gaza Hospital.
48:2948 minutes, 29 secondsSo if you invade Gaza Hospital we involve 24 embassies. Big problem. M plus I want safe passage to take away
48:3848 minutes, 38 secondssome of the patient. She can't take everybody. Okay. So she took away most she left about 30 and they left. That's how it's done.
48:4748 minutes, 47 secondsBut ICRC is not not going to contact the press, right? ICRC will radio to the Israeli high command and say this is a situation
48:5648 minutes, 56 secondsso we prefer you not to kill all the foreigners.
49:0049 minutesBut it's a dumb thing, isn't it? You mean it's all right to kill Palestinians?
49:0649 minutes, 6 secondsWhat kind of message are you sending out now? As I'm talking to you, I'm bewildered. You know, the ICRC actually
49:1349 minutes, 13 secondsradio to the IDF and say the foreigners, the British, the American, all the Europeans, you know, you know, they need safety passage out.
49:2549 minutes, 25 secondsSo maybe those people who came to get us actually want to take us out safely. M never mind we ended as prisoners a different story. Okay.
49:3549 minutes, 35 secondsBut that means it's okay to take the foreigners out and leave the rest of the camper.
49:4349 minutes, 43 secondsSo So how long did you end up staying on on that trip for? Which trip?
49:4849 minutes, 48 secondsThe the that that um that experience did you oh I just carried on and on and on. So
49:5449 minutes, 54 secondstalking to everybody but then you know I shared room with an American Jewish nurse
50:0350 minutes, 3 secondsand she has got years of experience as a Palestinian. She says you know I visited
50:1050 minutes, 10 secondsa Palestinian refugee camp in 1978 or something like that and my heart never left.
50:1950 minutes, 19 secondsI'm a Jew. how can my people do this and other people? So basically she filled me
50:2650 minutes, 26 secondsup with a political aspect of the Palestinian people and what are the things we should focus
Chapter 17: Testifying in the Kahan Commission
50:3350 minutes, 33 secondsand help them and so on. So, so and then one day she came to me and said, "Look, there are 400,000 people in Tel Aviv,
50:4250 minutes, 42 secondsdemonstrating against the Israeli government demanding that the war be stopped, you know, and against what the
50:5150 minutes, 51 secondsarmy is doing in in Lebanon and we call the money the army and they have set up a commission of inquiry, a tribunal
51:0051 minutescalled the Kahan Commission and I want to testify." I say good on you. No, no, no, not me. You are going
51:0751 minutes, 7 secondsto spy. So, she said, "I'll arrange that. Will you come with me?" I said, "Okay."
51:1551 minutes, 15 secondsYeah. That time I I I've got no idea, but if it's a chance to speak up, I'll go. M so she actually
51:2451 minutes, 24 secondswrote a statement introducing herself as a Jew and what Jewish schools you went through and her parents are from Russia
51:3251 minutes, 32 secondsand so on so forth and then submitted it to a journalist and take this to the Israeli headquarters in East Beirut.
51:4051 minutes, 40 secondsI'm Alan Seagull and I me and Dr. the Swaiang and another British doctor wants to testify.
51:5051 minutes, 50 secondsSo the IDF came took us out, escorted us to Israel,
51:5751 minutes, 57 secondsright? So and then we gave testimony to the Israeli Commission of Inquiry
52:0552 minutes, 5 secondsand it's very interesting because if you look at the name of my book from Beirut to Jerusalem, it's got two meanings. M
52:1352 minutes, 13 secondsnumber one is a prayer that the Palestinians of Lebanon and the Palestinian refugee
52:1952 minutes, 19 secondscamp can one day go back and worship in Jerusalem.
52:2552 minutes, 25 secondsThe second one is more simple. It's name of the trip I did.
52:3052 minutes, 30 secondsYeah. So this boat actually survived because it was classified as travel lock. M
52:3852 minutes, 38 secondsso it went very well was sold out and sold out again until somebody read it a few months later I said no this is not a
52:4552 minutes, 45 secondstravel lock this is a book which is pro Palestinian m and the mok press took it off the shelf
52:5452 minutes, 54 secondsand that's why it disappeared for about 20 years before I got the rights back and was published in Malaysia. Wow.
53:0253 minutes, 2 secondsYeah. and and that commission it did end up finding the IDF guilty of charon not fit for any office and he had to step down.
53:1053 minutes, 10 secondsYeah.
53:1153 minutes, 11 secondsYeah. But you know like why did your um friend Ellen want you specifically to testify? Was it because you had seen things firsthand but also because of your background?
53:2053 minutes, 20 secondsYeah. Because I am complete. She say look you are a Palestinian newborn. Okay. Your testimony counts.
53:2753 minutes, 27 secondsI am different. They have called me anti-semitic, anti-ionist Jew, self-hating Jew. But you, you are a Christian. You've seen it for the first time.
53:3753 minutes, 37 secondsYour testimony is important.
53:4153 minutes, 41 secondsSo I said fine. Yeah. If I talk to Reiter, Reuter print two sentences, why not go to Jerusalem and spill out the
53:4853 minutes, 48 secondswhole thing for 5 days, you know? M so I went m and of course you learn in in there one
53:5653 minutes, 56 secondsof the holocaust survivor came to talk to us you know and say how they cancel all their their celebration and all that
54:0554 minutes, 5 secondscompletely canled because of Sabra Shhatila Felicia Langanger who is a Jewish lawyer acting for Palestinians on many occasion
54:1354 minutes, 13 secondsalso came to visit us but after that the IDF told us that oh IDF took us to visit visit the Holocaust Museum.
54:2154 minutes, 21 secondsMhm.
54:2254 minutes, 22 secondsAnd in return, Alan Bargain that they took us to visit the old city. Mhm.
54:2854 minutes, 28 secondsSo that's the first time I actually visited the cradle of Christianity.
54:3354 minutes, 33 secondsAlthough at that time my brain is not on the pilgrimage, you know, I was thinking of the dead, the people under the rubble with no homes. How they going to face
54:4054 minutes, 40 secondsthe winter? Will they be deported? is so where you know but anyway that's my first pilgrimage to
54:4854 minutes, 48 secondsthe holy city escorted by IDF when you basically have this one and after that IDF say fine times up you
54:5754 minutes, 57 secondsare going back to England because I we cannot take you back to Lebanon because many things are going to go wrong
55:0655 minutes, 6 secondsso it's a very polite deportation the first deportation I had where the IDF soldiers just carried my luggage and put it on a plane.
55:1755 minutes, 17 secondsSo I came back completely distraught. Yeah. I felt I'd be cut off twice.
55:2255 minutes, 22 secondsOnce from Singapore because of my husband, the second time from the Palestinians.
55:3155 minutes, 31 secondsSo what can I do for them? Mhm.
55:3555 minutes, 35 secondsYeah. And I mean you know you just going back to that time in Jerusalem testifying. I mean your experience went from seeing it firsthand,
55:4355 minutes, 43 secondslearning about the politics along the way, crash cough.
55:4655 minutes, 46 secondsYeah, crash cough. But when you went to the commission surrounded by bureaucracy and almost the the the people or the
55:5455 minutes, 54 secondsorganization that inflicted a lot of the casualties, how how did you square that and and like how do you did it make you more cynical about the world or the authorities or the people involved?
56:0456 minutes, 4 secondsYeah, not so complicated. My my brain was very simple. The brain is the people of Sabra Shhatila have to have their story told.
56:1356 minutes, 13 secondsSo it doesn't matter where I tell it.
56:1556 minutes, 15 secondsIf I want to tell in Israel and they do nothing, it doesn't matter. I have spoken up. Right? That's the important thing.
56:2356 minutes, 23 secondsWhether they listen or don't listen, I've got no idea.
56:2756 minutes, 27 secondsIn fact, them finding the IDF, you know, responsible for all this and asking Shaon to step down and so on
56:3656 minutes, 36 secondsis actually a lot. M I didn't expect that.
56:3956 minutes, 39 secondsYeah. And Ellen was very clear, you know, a statement to the the commission.
56:4456 minutes, 44 secondsHe said, "Look, we seek justice for the Palestinian and I know that this forum will not give
56:5356 minutes, 53 secondsit to them, but we will have to speak up." So I think when it comes to speaking up
57:0157 minutes, 1 secondthat I've learned her and then through from then on I got so many people and I don't expect anything
57:0957 minutes, 9 secondsso as people who hear it they actually investigate and years later people who
57:1657 minutes, 16 secondsheard me in 1982 when I first came back have come back to me you know I founded this I founded that but I heard about the Palestinians first times with you.
57:2857 minutes, 28 secondsSo, so when you went back to the UK, did you have like renewed conviction that you have to speak out and and because after that you still uh entered the
57:3757 minutes, 37 secondsmedical practice again? You had those breakthroughs after that. What was your your motivation then?
57:4357 minutes, 43 secondsI came back that was around Christmas time. Okay.
57:4657 minutes, 46 secondsUh wanting very badly to do something for the widows and orphans you know in Sabra Shhatila, no home,
57:5457 minutes, 54 secondsnothing. And I spoke up a lot and I got I I got really terrible terrible the
58:0158 minutes, 1 secondjournalists who interviewed me get fired quite a few of them. That's why I very touchy about people interviewing me
58:0958 minutes, 9 secondsbecause it's a two-way process. You know whether you're going to lose your job, whether you're going to get shut down. This is this happens to me all the time.
58:1858 minutes, 18 secondsSo but on the other hand, you could speak up. But at the same time, you see, I'm not the commentator of Middle East politics. put my foot in, I get wrong.
58:2658 minutes, 26 secondsSome of the times, you know, I got criticized, got censored, got silenced.
58:3058 minutes, 30 secondsIt's my own doing because, you know, I I'm just a doctor, but I can't go back. So, how do I help
58:3958 minutes, 39 secondsthem? So a group of us got together and say look we set up an organization to support the work of the red crescent
58:4858 minutes, 48 secondsand we'll be a bridge between the Palestinians who are suffering and the people in Britain and I was surprised the British were so generous.
58:5958 minutes, 59 secondsYeah. Of course they were not openly say I support a two-state solution. No such thing. You know, they all support the right of Israel to
59:0759 minutes, 7 secondsexist, but we will do whatever we can to make sure the Palestinian kind of receive aid, you know, and relief.
59:1759 minutes, 17 secondsSo, map came to being and the word the name medical for Palestinians is chosen because I don't
59:2559 minutes, 25 secondscare what we do, we have to have the word Palestinians in it because nobody talk about Palestinians.
59:3159 minutes, 31 secondsI learned about the Palestinian through their death.
59:3459 minutes, 34 secondsIf I can do nothing for them, no, if not a single penny come in, at least we got a name, medical aid for Palestinians.
59:4259 minutes, 42 secondsAnd although we already started kind of raising funds and so on, our organization was not legalized until 1984
59:5159 minutes, 51 secondsbecause they wanted the name Palestinian removed.
59:5459 minutes, 54 secondsSo I I told our supporters, I said, "Look here, we cannot remove it. The Palestinians are being killed. Of
1:00:021 hour, 2 secondscourse, the killers want them dead. They don't want their name there. We as their friends cannot play this game. If we shut down, we shut down. Okay.
1:00:121 hour, 12 secondsThe name Palestinian must stay. So 1984 is when we actually became illegal.
1:00:191 hour, 19 secondsSo I mean you you you mentioned earlier that before even before you went to Lebanon, you were surrounded by a lot of uh Christian Yeah.
1:00:281 hour, 28 secondsOh, sorry. Yeah. So, but for you that experience, how did it change or Oh, they don't talk to me now. Many of
Chapter 18: Religious Reflection and Conclusion
1:00:351 hour, 35 secondsOkay. They come to me and they throw me the Bible and say those that curse Israel will be cursed.
1:00:411 hour, 41 secondsI said, "So, you're telling me I'm cursed?" Mhm.
1:00:431 hour, 43 secondsSo, in fact, I have to read the whole Bible all over again to work out whether the God in the Bible wants to kill Palestinians.
1:00:531 hour, 53 secondsYeah.
1:00:531 hour, 53 secondsOh, so you did that after you you I came out. Yeah. So how do you then use square that because you were a devout Christian you went to the holy land um
1:01:021 hour, 1 minute, 2 secondsyou experienced the other side I mean I can imagine some people totally giving up religion you know like leaving religion but you carried on and you
1:01:111 hour, 1 minute, 11 secondsmanaged to balance uh no I I I don't balance so I I actually what I did was I asked
1:01:181 hour, 1 minute, 18 secondsGod I said look here I've had enough okay yeah you favor one side against the others has It got to be like that.
1:01:281 hour, 1 minute, 28 secondsBut I will give you one more chance. This is me talking to God.
1:01:331 hour, 1 minute, 33 secondsI'm going to read the Bible all over again. And I want to see who you really are.
1:01:401 hour, 1 minute, 40 secondsSo I started from page one, Genesis, creation or you know all that.
1:01:461 hour, 1 minute, 46 secondsAnd then the first major kind of light bulb moment is when God was so angry with Adam and Eve. You remember that
1:01:541 hour, 1 minute, 54 secondsbit? Okay. I think it's in the Quran as well. He was so angry. He said, "I cast you out of the garden of Eden. I put a
1:02:021 hour, 2 minutes, 2 secondssword, a flaming sword at the entrance so that you cannot get back." Our god it was saraphim so he cannot come back.
1:02:101 hour, 2 minutes, 10 secondsBut next next sentence nobody reads but I'll come up with you to accompany you on your journey on earth.
1:02:211 hour, 2 minutes, 21 secondsSo God came up with man and woman. So God does not give them up even though they have sinned.
1:02:281 hour, 2 minutes, 28 secondsSo the next bit is about God making clothes for them, you know. And then it went on to the Abrahamic covenant, which
1:02:371 hour, 2 minutes, 37 secondsis so important, which nobody understands, you know. I I I don't want to turn this into a religious thing, but basically
1:02:451 hour, 2 minutes, 45 secondspeople think that the Abraic covenant means that um the chosen people of God, the tribes of Israel, possess the land of Cananan.
1:02:551 hour, 2 minutes, 55 secondsIt's not like that. Your descendants will possess this land. But walk before me and be thou perfect. That was the
1:03:041 hour, 3 minutes, 4 secondsfirst covenant of land. Your descendant, who are God's descendants? Ismaile his firstborn, Isaac the second born and
1:03:131 hour, 3 minutes, 13 secondslater many more children. Okay. So that's a land covenant. So then we talk about the covenant that you will bless all nations.
1:03:231 hour, 3 minutes, 23 secondsSo if you look at it, who can bless all nations? Israel or the Palestinians? Neither of them can. Countries in this world are
1:03:311 hour, 3 minutes, 31 secondsimperfect. We're human beings. We can bless someone but not a lot.
1:03:361 hour, 3 minutes, 36 secondsWho can bless all nations? only God can listen.
1:03:391 hour, 3 minutes, 39 secondsSo he said, "I'll stay with you." You know, and that is in a context when Abraham was sacrificing his son Isaac
1:03:481 hour, 3 minutes, 48 secondsand he says, "Because you have not withheld your son, I will not be be withhold mine."
1:03:571 hour, 3 minutes, 57 secondsSo it's a covenant of a savior, right? Who will bless all nation?
1:04:031 hour, 4 minutes, 3 secondsIn the Quran, Jesus is a Makdi Messiah.
1:04:081 hour, 4 minutes, 8 secondsIn a Christian, Jesus is the son of God will come back and redeem all civilization. He was talking about that.
1:04:171 hour, 4 minutes, 17 secondsHe's not talking about this land, you know, and that Israel will be the number one nation, intimidate everybody. He's talking about that.
1:04:241 hour, 4 minutes, 24 secondsHe's talking about God wanting to bless all nations because of Abraham's sacrifice.
1:04:311 hour, 4 minutes, 31 secondsThat is a covenant. My my Christian friends they don't I I don't get that far.
1:04:371 hour, 4 minutes, 37 secondsAnd as to the Palestinians, they are the descendant of the holy land. Some of them are Jews,
1:04:461 hour, 4 minutes, 46 secondssome of them are Christians, some of them Muslims.
1:04:491 hour, 4 minutes, 49 secondsAnd as to the belief whether the children of Haga has a share of the land, it has. God spoke to Haga twice.
1:04:571 hour, 4 minutes, 57 secondsThe mother of Isa is Yeah. She she is also chosen by God and her son is chosen
1:05:051 hour, 5 minutes, 5 secondsby God. So it's all about sharing and not about supremacy. So that's all dealt with. Okay.
1:05:131 hour, 5 minutes, 13 secondsSo so I mean armed with that realization I can imagine um I mean even in this day and age where there's so many horrible
Chapter 19: Engaging with Opposing Views
1:05:201 hour, 5 minutes, 20 secondsthings happening um back then and through the years how how did you engage people who were curious to know about
1:05:281 hour, 5 minutes, 28 secondswhat's going on? Because right now even my own experience when you talk to someone you take a side immediately it's binary you either this side or that side. Um throughout your years
1:05:371 hour, 5 minutes, 37 secondsespecially since you you read the Bible you reaffirmed your faith. How do you typically deal with people who just wrote you off?
1:05:451 hour, 5 minutes, 45 secondsYeah that's their problem not mine. I I am very simple. Okay. God is the God of father of all.
1:05:521 hour, 5 minutes, 52 secondsOkay. So whether you're a Jew or Muslim or a Christian, you know, God is your father.
1:06:001 hour, 6 minutesBut if you go out and kill your brother, possess their land and, you know, starve them, you know, drive them out,
1:06:091 hour, 6 minutes, 9 secondsdo you think God will approve of that, then they get angry with me and they walk up? Never mind.
1:06:171 hour, 6 minutes, 17 secondsYeah. But some of them come back.
1:06:181 hour, 6 minutes, 18 secondsYeah. Gaza make them come back because for the first time they can actually see what's happening.
Chapter 20: Gaza Conflict and Humanitarian Concerns
1:06:251 hour, 6 minutes, 25 secondsSo is not telling lies and exaggerating crying acts. You can see for yourself. Yeah.
1:06:321 hour, 6 minutes, 32 secondsThey come back to me, email me. My goodness, my heart and I just take a big breath
1:06:391 hour, 6 minutes, 39 secondsand I know it's God working in their heart. It's nothing do me. I can argue on the C. It's not about arguing and winning an argument. It's not it's not debating society. It's about human life.
1:06:521 hour, 6 minutes, 52 secondsYou know, Palestinians are being starved to death. Eight more died yesterday of starvation and dozens more killed getting food. You
1:07:011 hour, 7 minutes, 1 secondknow, it's a famine, right? When people are so hungry, they will risk their life going to get food and get killed.
1:07:091 hour, 7 minutes, 9 secondsYeah. You know, and here it is. Now, I just read the piece this morning. We've come to you. They have suggested that
1:07:161 hour, 7 minutes, 16 secondsthey deport the whole of Gaza and put them in South Sudan. Have you read that? How about that?
1:07:221 hour, 7 minutes, 22 secondsYeah. So, how how do they face God? Yeah.
1:07:251 hour, 7 minutes, 25 secondsSo, so when you see things like this, given that, you know, you've been sharing and and um talking about the Palestinian cause, the Palestinian
1:07:331 hour, 7 minutes, 33 secondsplight for 43 years, when you see the past 3 years happen, that are how do you feel? Because I can imagine it's almost like things are not
1:07:421 hour, 7 minutes, 42 secondsgetting better, things are getting worse.
1:07:431 hour, 7 minutes, 43 secondsYeah. Big scale. Yeah, a big scale and I mean even for now we look at it I don't know how to even think about it because this has been going on for years
1:07:511 hour, 7 minutes, 51 secondseveryone says oh we are moving towards a two-state solution but now it seems to be getting worse so for someone who has been on the ground you know 40 years ago
1:07:591 hour, 7 minutes, 59 secondsseeing everything that's been happening over the years how do you think about it is like does it fill you with a bit of hopelessness or even more drive to to to
1:08:081 hour, 8 minutes, 8 secondsdo something um you look at it this way 43 years ago they died and nobody cared.
1:08:191 hour, 8 minutes, 19 secondsOkay. One Dr. Ang trying to form a charity with her friends, you know, pay 600 to donate to the women, that was what we had.
Chapter 21: Refugee Crisis and Historical Context
1:08:301 hour, 8 minutes, 30 secondsAnd if you look at Palestinian history, 1948, 600 villages erased, finished. Okay.
1:08:431 hour, 8 minutes, 43 secondsYeah. and 750,000 according to professor Salman more dispossessed
1:08:501 hour, 8 minutes, 50 secondsso bad that United Nation has to form a branch called Anra so that all these Palestine refugees can be taken care of
1:08:581 hour, 8 minutes, 58 secondsfood and shelter and all that because they are just dying all over the border state it was that
1:09:051 hour, 9 minutes, 5 secondsbad now at that time Palestinian refugees 750,000
1:09:121 hour, 9 minutes, 12 secondsToday 7 million at the time nobody knew who they are.
1:09:191 hour, 9 minutes, 19 secondsNow everybody know so either people take sides against them because they just feel that they are
1:09:261 hour, 9 minutes, 26 secondscursed or people dare not speak up to want to lose your job. Okay. Or people actually speak up and put themselves in the front.
Chapter 22: Palestinian Identity and Global Perceptions
1:09:381 hour, 9 minutes, 38 secondsThat is progress.
1:09:401 hour, 9 minutes, 40 secondsOkay. Gaza has paid a very high price to tell the story of Palestine.
1:09:461 hour, 9 minutes, 46 secondsYeah. So in in the perspective of 77 years of
1:09:531 hour, 9 minutes, 53 secondssuffering, this is the worst. But if you look at the Palestinian people for them, they will just go on.
1:10:041 hour, 10 minutes, 4 secondsYou know, you talk about voluntary uh kind of uh leaving Gaza. If you starve them and
1:10:121 hour, 10 minutes, 12 secondsthey have to find food outside, that is not voluntary.
1:10:181 hour, 10 minutes, 18 secondsThat's ethnic cleansing and genocide, right?
1:10:221 hour, 10 minutes, 22 secondsSo, so we we we understand now. I don't have to explain because when I faced an audience now, I said, "What can I tell you that you don't already know? M
1:10:311 hour, 10 minutes, 31 secondsyou just decide which side are you on now the the
1:10:381 hour, 10 minutes, 38 secondsPalestinians lives living and existence does not predicate on the disappearance of Israel and
1:10:471 hour, 10 minutes, 47 secondsneither is it the other way you know suppose you flip the side if Palestine
1:10:551 hour, 10 minutes, 55 secondsis doing it to the people of of of Israel same it's the same pain
1:11:021 hour, 11 minutes, 2 secondsthe only solution is they share the land correct and us lord who are not
1:11:081 hour, 11 minutes, 8 secondsPalestinians have to realize that in a crisis like that I don't want to take side
1:11:151 hour, 11 minutes, 15 secondsyou know they fight it out this world everywhere they're suffering yeah so why are you zooming on Palestine I'm zooming
1:11:221 hour, 11 minutes, 22 secondson Palestine because for 77 years they've been suffering the scale of it such that we are seeing it Sudan we
1:11:301 hour, 11 minutes, 30 secondsdon't see so much okay and it's very complicated and where are you
1:11:381 hour, 11 minutes, 38 secondswhere are you in terms of this genocide which side are you on do you favor the annalation and erasia
1:11:461 hour, 11 minutes, 46 secondsof Gaza you can do that but what about West Bank what about the 7 million in
1:11:541 hour, 11 minutes, 54 secondsrefugee camps all over you want to finish them off too Mhm. Yeah.
1:11:591 hour, 11 minutes, 59 secondsBut but you know, you you just mentioned that what's happening in um Sudan is complicated. I hear a lot of people also saying the same thing about what's
1:12:061 hour, 12 minutes, 6 secondshappening in in Gaza and Israel. And I I think it's it's one of those things that it's so complicated that Yeah. Like what you said, just let them fight it out.
1:12:151 hour, 12 minutes, 15 secondsWe are not letting them fight it out. We're arming one side against the other.
1:12:191 hour, 12 minutes, 19 secondsThe people who talk like that are the people in the countries who are actually pro- Israel, right? South Africa don't talk like that.
1:12:291 hour, 12 minutes, 29 secondsYeah.
1:12:301 hour, 12 minutes, 30 secondsThe people who are actually doing a lot for Palestine don't talk like that.
1:12:351 hour, 12 minutes, 35 secondsSo the people who are complicit in the massacre and the man-made famine in Gaza are using neutrality as a fake belief.
1:12:471 hour, 12 minutes, 47 secondsI I'm sorry. I think a lot of your viewers will be very angry. One day we all stand before God.
1:12:551 hour, 12 minutes, 55 secondsYou know I used to say that your children will ask you where were you in this genocide which can be stopped.
1:13:041 hour, 13 minutes, 4 secondsYou can't stop Sudan because the dynamics is totally different. Israel Palestine very simple. You pump in a lot
Chapter 23: Challenges in Addressing the Conflict
1:13:121 hour, 13 minutes, 12 secondsof aid and money for one side to destroy the other side. Come on. You know USA stop the arms and the war will stop.
1:13:201 hour, 13 minutes, 20 secondsIt's quite simple.
1:13:221 hour, 13 minutes, 22 secondsThey say oh your mind so simplistic, so naive. I'm not naive. I'm very intelligent and I know more than you.
1:13:301 hour, 13 minutes, 30 secondsBut you're not stopping it because the arm straight makes a lot of money and a lot of innovation on how to kill people,
1:13:381 hour, 13 minutes, 38 secondsyou know, and so on so forth and you're totally entrenched with this war machinery and then you use religion and
1:13:451 hour, 13 minutes, 45 secondsall that to kind of cover it up. M and you know just now you mentioned that sometimes you when you're talking you
1:13:531 hour, 13 minutes, 53 secondsfeel like what is it I can tell you that you don't already know but from your experience is there anything that if not for your experience
Chapter 24: Importance of Social Media and News Interpretation
1:14:001 hour, 14 minutesyou yourself wouldn't know because the the struggle I think for a lot of people in this generation who who try to understand sometimes I read the news I
1:14:091 hour, 14 minutes, 9 secondsdon't know who's wrong who's right I see stats you me yeah sometimes I see the Hamas control ministry of health declares
1:14:161 hour, 14 minutes, 16 secondsthese numbers which is and refuted by the Israeli side. And then I'm like, okay, I don't know who to believe and I don't know who and sometimes I I feel
1:14:241 hour, 14 minutes, 24 secondsthere's so much stuff that's happening that the common man doesn't understand.
1:14:291 hour, 14 minutes, 29 secondsBut you've been on the ground, you have testified at a commission, you've been speaking about it for 43 years. Is there anything that you've realized that surprised you about actually the dynamic
1:14:381 hour, 14 minutes, 38 secondsthat is is within everything that's happening? The dimension frightens me.
1:14:441 hour, 14 minutes, 44 secondsYeah. And and it also I also thought about it if what's happened in Gaza now
1:14:511 hour, 14 minutes, 51 secondsthe last two years happened maybe 30 years ago they'll get away with it. Yeah. Because we won't know.
1:15:011 hour, 15 minutes, 1 secondBut somehow I just feel that our eyes are opening and that's why it went on for so long.
1:15:101 hour, 15 minutes, 10 secondsYou know un is supposed to be neutral right? When I speak, most of my figures does not come from the Hamas control MO
1:15:191 hour, 15 minutes, 19 secondsbecause medical aid for Palestinians absolutely will have nothing to do with Hamas. Okay? So we have no projects with Hamas.
1:15:281 hour, 15 minutes, 28 secondsWe do not sanction them. If we give a single penny to Hamas, we get closed down.
1:15:341 hour, 15 minutes, 34 secondsSo it all comes from UN. And then now the focus is on UN, you know, closing the UN, threatening
1:15:421 hour, 15 minutes, 42 secondsthe ICC. How is this ICC is good enough for Ukraine, you know, for Balkans, but it's not good enough for Israel and Palestine? How come?
1:15:531 hour, 15 minutes, 53 secondsYou just have to ask the question, are there two rules, two sets of laws? One for one set of people and the other, you
1:16:011 hour, 16 minutes, 1 secondknow, very simple. a seven year old Palestinian boy who studied in the UK.
1:16:071 hour, 16 minutes, 7 secondsAll right. Because parents are working in in UK. Of course, they got British passport. One day he sit down and say,
1:16:141 hour, 16 minutes, 14 seconds"Yeah, blah blah blah. How are you today?" Dr. I'm very upset. I said upset about what? When Ukraine Ukraine
1:16:211 hour, 16 minutes, 21 secondshappened, the teachers asked them to kind of help with baking cakes, raising money for Ukraine and the Ukrainian
1:16:301 hour, 16 minutes, 30 secondswounded come and how government treat them and we give them 300,000 places to house them, you know, bypass the refugee process and then down Gaza.
1:16:431 hour, 16 minutes, 43 secondsAnd then I I go back to school, same school, and I tried to talk about Gaza and teacher pull me like
1:16:501 hour, 16 minutes, 50 secondsdon't are we allowed to die and not people are not supposed to even remember us or talk
1:16:581 hour, 16 minutes, 58 secondsabout us how come we're different from from the Ukrainians how come we can even try and sort out
1:17:071 hour, 17 minutes, 7 secondsthe Balkans what's wrong with us or what's wrong with the world so if you look at it in that way you
1:17:161 hour, 17 minutes, 16 secondswill realize that it's a big silencing program going on somewhere to stop people knowing about what's happening to
1:17:241 hour, 17 minutes, 24 secondsthe Palestinian. It's gone on for 70 over years. Mhm.
1:17:281 hour, 17 minutes, 28 secondsIt took me a trip to Sabra Shatila to learn about the truth because if you're standing in the middle of dead bodies
1:17:351 hour, 17 minutes, 35 secondswith orphans everywhere with homes are destroyed with no future for these people
1:17:431 hour, 17 minutes, 43 secondsyou cannot on the one side you know the PLO is already gone
1:17:491 hour, 17 minutes, 49 secondsyou know you have to believe your own environment existence you you cannot be debating whether This is put up for you to see.
1:18:001 hour, 18 minutesI know a dead body who is shot. See it.
1:18:041 hour, 18 minutes, 4 secondsAnd even you talk about the the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. Even the US contractors themselves
1:18:131 hour, 18 minutes, 13 secondsresigned, right? Because they actually they went there in good faith thinking that we're going to feed half a million people
1:18:211 hour, 18 minutes, 21 secondstoday, you know, big time, you know, better than McDonald. So, and then you go there, you give them food and you
1:18:281 hour, 18 minutes, 28 secondsgive them sacks of flowers and the moment they leave you, you hear gunshot and then the hospital are filled with wounded and death.
1:18:381 hour, 18 minutes, 38 secondsThat is not a lie.
1:18:411 hour, 18 minutes, 41 secondsPeople prepared to go there and get food knowing that there's a good chance of lying or dying.
1:18:481 hour, 18 minutes, 48 secondsYou know, that's not a lie.
1:18:511 hour, 18 minutes, 51 secondsYou know, we don't talk to Palestinians. That's the trouble. Yeah.
1:18:561 hour, 18 minutes, 56 secondsNow it's a lot better because the Palestinians can actually phone us and tell us what's happening.
1:19:021 hour, 19 minutes, 2 secondsBut we refuse to listen to them, you know. But you listen to them and you know they're not lying.
1:19:091 hour, 19 minutes, 9 secondsThey're dying. But they're not lying.
1:19:121 hour, 19 minutes, 12 secondsThey're lying. But the world is so skeptical. They rather say that Hamas control MOH. I forget about Hamas
1:19:191 hour, 19 minutes, 19 secondscontrol. What about the UN? Oh, UN is biased. Yeah, we've heard that also. Yeah, UN is bias. Shut Anra down. Okay. Yeah.
Chapter 25: Personal Reflections and Activism
1:19:281 hour, 19 minutes, 28 secondsI tell you why Anra is under trouble.
1:19:301 hour, 19 minutes, 30 secondsAnra has kept the Palestinian refugees alive for 76 years.
1:19:361 hour, 19 minutes, 36 secondsWithout Anra there will be it's difficult to keep Palestinian refugees alive and focused.
1:19:461 hour, 19 minutes, 46 secondsYeah. So if you look at it, schools are destroyed, mosques are destroyed, Christian churches are destroyed, Christian hospital is destroyed. Okay?
1:19:561 hour, 19 minutes, 56 secondsAnd then you look at university are gone, 2,000 medical students cannot continue the study. Okay? 1,500
1:20:041 hour, 20 minutes, 4 secondsdoctors and nurses and health workers killed, right? 35,000 orphans with either one or both parents missing.
1:20:141 hour, 20 minutes, 14 secondsOkay. 1,500 families completely wiped out. Okay, these are real figures,
1:20:221 hour, 20 minutes, 22 secondsright? So, there's no ifs and but if you choose to listen to Israel, which
1:20:281 hour, 20 minutes, 28 secondsmost of us have done and I've done for 33 years, this will continue
1:20:351 hour, 20 minutes, 35 secondsuntil the war aims are accomplished. And the war aims are actually spelled out by Israel itself.
1:20:451 hour, 20 minutes, 45 secondsdrive them out, ethnically cleanse it. They're the Amilites.
1:20:511 hour, 20 minutes, 51 secondsYou know, these are they they say I didn't say it.
1:20:541 hour, 20 minutes, 54 secondsIsraeli snipers actually show us their pictures of who they choose. It's not from me. It's from them.
1:21:021 hour, 21 minutes, 2 secondsGoing in the Palestinians home, taking out their clothes, stripping all the Palestinians and lying them up, you know, torturing doctors, killing them under torture. This not me, that's them.
1:21:121 hour, 21 minutes, 12 secondsM and then when the when when people protest even the Israeli
1:21:191 hour, 21 minutes, 19 secondscourt want to charge the IDF for raping Dr. Albush to death. Mhm.
1:21:261 hour, 21 minutes, 26 secondsThere was a big revolt. The IDF they know we sanction rape against Palestinian prisoners.
1:21:361 hour, 21 minutes, 36 secondsIt's them who say I didn't say it.
1:21:391 hour, 21 minutes, 39 secondsYeah. M so so what side are you talking about? Yeah.
1:21:451 hour, 21 minutes, 45 secondsSo I I mean the I think you like now with social media also we are hearing directly from Palestinians and all right.
1:21:541 hour, 21 minutes, 54 secondsHas do you feel like the reception to your message has gotten has changed over the years now that people are seeing for
1:22:021 hour, 22 minutes, 2 secondsthemselves on I mean I'll be on their phones but they are seeing for themselves what is actually happening there.
1:22:071 hour, 22 minutes, 7 secondsYes of course. So like how was the response back last time before social media and today? How is it different?
1:22:141 hour, 22 minutes, 14 secondsOkay, I want to tell you the Palestinians brought me back to Singapore.
1:22:201 hour, 22 minutes, 20 secondsYeah, because I've been exiled for so many years.
1:22:251 hour, 22 minutes, 25 secondsAnd I've been back to Singapore four four times in 47 years or 48 years.
1:22:321 hour, 22 minutes, 32 secondsFirst time special permission to bring Francis Ashes back 2012 special. Okay.
1:22:391 hour, 22 minutes, 39 secondsThe second time I was back is because they want me to renounce British citizenship. You can't hold dual.
1:22:471 hour, 22 minutes, 47 secondsSo I came back commission of inquiry and I said I won't renounce anything. You can take what you want, you know.
1:22:541 hour, 22 minutes, 54 secondsSo they took away my my Singapore citizenship. I said I didn't renounce. Okay.
1:23:021 hour, 23 minutes, 2 secondsAnd then the third time I came back because Harvard club Singapore want to make me a fellow but they made me a fellow because of my
1:23:091 hour, 23 minutes, 9 secondsPalestinian work right and this time I came n US invited me knowing full well that I'm going to
1:23:171 hour, 23 minutes, 17 secondstalk about the Palestine and Gaza but they told me don't be political
1:23:241 hour, 23 minutes, 24 secondshow not to be political. I'm I'm speaking up I'm speaking up against the machinery who want to kill them and I
1:23:321 hour, 23 minutes, 32 secondswant to save them. It's as political as all that. Okay. Yeah.
1:23:361 hour, 23 minutes, 36 secondsBut you did end up giving a speak a talk of course.
1:23:401 hour, 23 minutes, 40 secondsAnd I mean do you do you still have that fear like um of how people will react to you cuz I mean four times since uh over over decades.
1:23:491 hour, 23 minutes, 49 seconds50 years nearly 50 years.
1:23:511 hour, 23 minutes, 51 secondsYeah. like uh is that still that fear or or and and how do you see Singapore now you know coming back because in some way
1:23:581 hour, 23 minutes, 58 secondsthey kind of k you up you know yeah that's all right I think it's quite fair you know you don't allow dual
1:24:051 hour, 24 minutes, 5 secondscitizenship so why should you make exception for me government give you face you know give you a choice you know we keep your
1:24:141 hour, 24 minutes, 14 secondscitizenship but you got to renounce British I said no I won't do that then you renounce Singapore no I won't do that how How can you tell a government that what do you want them to do?
1:24:241 hour, 24 minutes, 24 secondsYeah.
1:24:251 hour, 24 minutes, 25 secondsAnd and I mean like like now when you look at Singapore because I think one thing also that we see a lot is that you
1:24:321 hour, 24 minutes, 32 secondsknow the Palestinians are equal to Hamas which is like what you said even the 82.
1:24:371 hour, 24 minutes, 37 secondsYeah. P then uh I mean even even last week there was a demonstration in Israel about people protesting Netanyahu's
1:24:441 hour, 24 minutes, 44 secondsplans to invade Gaza you know. So like um I think that's one thing that is almost like a skill. How do you separate two entities that are the same? And is
1:24:531 hour, 24 minutes, 53 secondsthat something that you have kind of developed over time? Because right now everyone just they label even when you look at Singapore, yes, there were
1:25:001 hour, 25 minutesthings that led to you being exiled, but they are still Singaporeans and it's not the same. The authorities, the people, they're not the same. What would you
1:25:091 hour, 25 minutes, 9 secondsrecommend or suggest to people who are struggling with that?
1:25:111 hour, 25 minutes, 11 secondsOkay. Okay. I It's very difficult. Some people deliberately confounded to legitimize a genocide. That's different.
1:25:211 hour, 25 minutes, 21 secondsOkay, that is that's evil. All right.
1:25:251 hour, 25 minutes, 25 secondsBut if you look at it this way, 1982, no Hamas. No Hamas at all. PLO. Okay.
1:25:341 hour, 25 minutes, 34 seconds1948, no Hamas.
1:25:371 hour, 25 minutes, 37 secondsOkay. Ethnic cleansing of Palestine. All right. So all this happened without Hamas. Now, I don't want to go through
1:25:461 hour, 25 minutes, 46 secondsthe history of Hamas because I'm no authority and I've not spoken to Hamas ever. I hope one day I can, but I'm not
1:25:531 hour, 25 minutes, 53 secondswanting to do it. So, it's not a problem. People have bad governments. Okay.
1:25:591 hour, 25 minutes, 59 secondsJust like Israelis who actually demonstrated and say Natanyahu doesn't represent us.
1:26:061 hour, 26 minutes, 6 secondsPalestinian also say that Hamas doesn't represent us.
1:26:101 hour, 26 minutes, 10 secondsBut then nobody say because so bad we will withdraw funding to Israel we stop the arms and so on. Nobody says that
1:26:191 hour, 26 minutes, 19 secondshere there's more bombs here there's more arms F-16 you know so so it's bias
1:26:261 hour, 26 minutes, 26 secondsalready correct so we have to be very clear right I am very very inspired
1:26:351 hour, 26 minutes, 35 secondsby the younger generation in Singapore because growing up in a country which
1:26:441 hour, 26 minutes, 44 secondswere which was completely pro-Israel I think you've shifted your government and educated your government to the contrary.
1:26:521 hour, 26 minutes, 52 secondsAnd a lot of people say two states the revolution what for you know means nothing. It means a lot. Mhm.
1:26:581 hour, 26 minutes, 58 secondsYou know we have now a failed two state since Oslo. Okay. Oslo didn't happen.
1:27:051 hour, 27 minutes, 5 secondsOslo means 22% Palestine state 78% Israeli state didn't happen. it degenerate from change 2% to 12% to 8%.
1:27:181 hour, 27 minutes, 18 secondsAnd if you get rid of Gaza maybe 7%. So there's no two state at all. So but even
1:27:251 hour, 27 minutes, 25 secondsall that a state is not conditioned on how the people and the government behave.
1:27:341 hour, 27 minutes, 34 secondsCorrect? Mhm.
1:27:361 hour, 27 minutes, 36 secondsWhich country can actually put its hand on his heart that we have never done anything wrong? M
1:27:441 hour, 27 minutes, 44 secondsa lot of war criminals get punished and so on but nobody ever say that because
1:27:511 hour, 27 minutes, 51 secondsyour so and so is war criminal we will remove your stateood so the Palestinian to have their right to statehood
1:28:001 hour, 28 minutesthat's ingrained you know and psychosan for the Palestinian people
1:28:071 hour, 28 minutes, 7 secondsyou see now they you know now what have they
1:28:131 hour, 28 minutes, 13 secondsBut of course the offer of a statethood which might happen in 5 years time
1:28:211 hour, 28 minutes, 21 secondsdoes must not take our view away and a focus away from what's happened in Gaza and West Bank
1:28:281 hour, 28 minutes, 28 secondsbecause by the time 5 years come and and this thing continue there'll be no Palestine to recognize not even 5%.
1:28:351 hour, 28 minutes, 35 secondsRight? So if we recognize a Palestinian state, very good diplomatic, you know, is a victory and the Palestinian should
1:28:441 hour, 28 minutes, 44 secondshave it independent of what Singapore say, what Malaysia say and so is their inherent inalimable right to have a state, right?
1:28:541 hour, 28 minutes, 54 secondsForget it. Okay, that's that's done. You're given. Yeah.
1:28:581 hour, 28 minutes, 58 secondsYeah. M so so for people who are listening and maybe have become more curious what what would you suggest they
1:29:051 hour, 29 minutes, 5 secondsdo let's say if they want to find out more if they want to help if they want to be more conscious okay I want to tell you something if you
1:29:131 hour, 29 minutes, 13 secondsread my book is many many pages you might not want to do it and we can show the book we can show the book as you end up in tears and then you can't sleep okay I can tell you that
1:29:211 hour, 29 minutes, 21 secondsbecause it's all based on the testimony of Palestinian people so but you read this book it's all in a nutshell Why Palestine? Okay. Why? Why
1:29:301 hour, 29 minutes, 30 secondsshould we bother? Because Palestine is a center and a litmus test for humanity.
1:29:361 hour, 29 minutes, 36 secondsIt's a moral compass. And for someone like me, I cannot walk away from it.
1:29:411 hour, 29 minutes, 41 secondsBecause if I know that a person uh a country, a people have been so persecuted and if I walk away, I'm worth nothing.
1:29:531 hour, 29 minutes, 53 secondsAnd also unfortunately for my younger friends, they've seen it.
1:29:581 hour, 29 minutes, 58 secondsThey might justify yeah because they upset Israel say you know but they're not like that.
1:30:031 hour, 30 minutes, 3 secondsYou ask yourself do you walk away then in all religious faith you are not supposed to walk away from such inhumity.
1:30:131 hour, 30 minutes, 13 secondsSo if you walk away from this thing you had it. You can't talk about anything else.
1:30:181 hour, 30 minutes, 18 secondsYeah. So I'm very pleased that you know I'm seeing a different thing in Singapore. I've never dreamed that
1:30:261 hour, 30 minutes, 26 secondsSingapore will ever want to recognize a Palestine state. I will never ask the Singapore government to do that. Yeah.
1:30:331 hour, 30 minutes, 33 secondsBut who pushed them? Not me. The people of Singapore.
1:30:411 hour, 30 minutes, 41 secondsIf the government won't do it, next time I don't vote you. I don't friend you. Correct. We we still got democracy.
1:30:491 hour, 30 minutes, 49 secondsSo as much as you see your book uh which is u from Beirut to Jerusalem is thick.
1:30:531 hour, 30 minutes, 53 secondsI actually think people would want to read it.
1:30:561 hour, 30 minutes, 56 secondsUm then you they read both.
1:30:571 hour, 30 minutes, 57 secondsThey read both. Okay. Why Palestine written by Professor Wlet who we have had on our podcast recently and from Beirut to Jerusalem. Yeah.
1:31:051 hour, 31 minutes, 5 secondsUm I mean because it really does uh ground I think your story not just as you know
1:31:131 hour, 31 minutes, 13 secondsactivist or what but you know as a Singaporean concerned who's concerned about humanity as well and that you can come from Pungbas or
1:31:221 hour, 31 minutes, 22 secondswhichever part. And you can you can actually from you are from so you can devote but you can still devote your
1:31:291 hour, 31 minutes, 29 secondslife to help all these people who are so far away as you you help your own people okay charity be gains at home
1:31:381 hour, 31 minutes, 38 secondsright it doesn't end there right you help the people in Singapore those who need your help it makes you feel
1:31:441 hour, 31 minutes, 44 secondsvery good but then you go beyond that come on Singapore is a very successful country we got a lot of resources Mhm.
1:31:531 hour, 31 minutes, 53 secondsWhat's wrong with just using some of those capital that we have gained to help some other country?
1:32:021 hour, 32 minutes, 2 secondsAnd apart from angry making Israel angry and USA angry, the whole world is happy. Yeah.
1:32:091 hour, 32 minutes, 9 secondsYeah. Today I think it is uh it's a given that Palestine is a cause of the
1:32:171 hour, 32 minutes, 17 secondslab. Correct. Not during my time you you help Palestine, you lose your job.
1:32:251 hour, 32 minutes, 25 secondsNow you help Palestine, the young colleagues will sign up all the petition for you. Different.
1:32:321 hour, 32 minutes, 32 secondsYeah. And and to you that is a sign of progress.
1:32:361 hour, 32 minutes, 36 secondsThat's a letter that one of the younger people wrote, you know, we must stand in solidarity with the health workers of
1:32:431 hour, 32 minutes, 43 secondsPalestine. Of course, I sign. Okay. They want someone to sign. I said I said right let's go for Brook I sent it to
Chapter 26: Progress in Palestinian Advocacy
1:32:511 hour, 32 minutes, 51 secondsall my colleagues okay these are the auto lead let's see what happened and then within 48 hours got 1,600 signature
1:33:001 hour, 33 minutesso she sent me the list and I look at it I said my god you know the whole elite all the world has signed I said wow it's
1:33:081 hour, 33 minutes, 8 secondschanged then when I was on the flotillaa I got arrested and I felt very bad you see because I told my colleagues I'm going
1:33:171 hour, 33 minutes, 17 secondssailing think yeah by sailing I'm not lying okay to so this was 2018 right yeah 2018 sailing so the whole whole lot
1:33:261 hour, 33 minutes, 26 secondsof us got arrested in international water and when I was coming out I was going back to work you know and I said
1:33:341 hour, 33 minutes, 34 secondsgod almighty I don't know how you know I call it this woman do you know and didn't tell them the truth and when I
1:33:411 hour, 33 minutes, 41 secondswalk into a morning meeting every morning 8:00 meeting discuss all the casualties they home start to clap and I said, "Wow." I said, "I'm okay.
1:33:521 hour, 33 minutes, 52 secondsI'm alive. I'm in one piece." So later on, I found out while I was in prison, they phoned the BBC say, "You're horrible. Never cover the story. You
1:34:001 hour, 34 minutesknow, my colleagues down there, you know, they wrote to their MPs, kick up a big fast and so forth because people I think people are good.
1:34:121 hour, 34 minutes, 12 secondsOf course, we're all sinners. That's no problem. People try to do good but we are fed the wrong information.
1:34:201 hour, 34 minutes, 20 secondsThose of us who have the privilege of seeing it firsthand has to tell the story what how no matter how inconvenient.
1:34:301 hour, 34 minutes, 30 secondsYeah.
1:34:301 hour, 34 minutes, 30 secondsAnd and I mean that's why full respect to you. I mean you're 77 now. You can totally just sit back and you know do do
1:34:371 hour, 34 minutes, 37 secondsnothing but you're still stronger than ever uh with your with your course.
1:34:421 hour, 34 minutes, 42 secondsYeah. I I tell you something. I got two jobs. Day job autobe surgeon look after arthritic hands.
1:34:481 hour, 34 minutes, 48 secondsCuz you're still Yeah, I'm still operating. My my colleague say you can let's do something easier. Actually, it's not easier but more less physically demanding.
1:34:571 hour, 34 minutes, 57 secondsI got night job.
1:34:581 hour, 34 minutes, 58 secondsNight job. The Palestinian cause actually it's activism, right?
1:35:031 hour, 35 minutes, 3 secondsWhich I really didn't focus. I didn't click this. That night job carries on until I die.
1:35:111 hour, 35 minutes, 11 secondsYeah. And I mean full respect to you uh Dr. Sweet. Thank you so much for sharing. I know even sharing the the the difficult parts it can't be easy for you. So we really really appreciate it.
1:35:221 hour, 35 minutes, 22 secondsNo, thank you for having me. You giving a chance to talk to people. Yeah.
1:35:251 hour, 35 minutes, 25 secondsNo, it needs to be heard. You need your story needs to be heard. Definitely. Thank you.
1:35:301 hour, 35 minutes, 30 secondsThank you for giving me the platform and anytime you're back, you know, the fifth time you come back, the sixth time you come back, you are more than welcome here.
1:35:371 hour, 35 minutes, 37 secondsAnd I mean on that note, we do have the the normal way we end every podcast. No matter how somber the topic is is a little segment we call the one shook
1:35:451 hour, 35 minutes, 45 secondsthing is just to fill you know the listeners with hope, optimism. Um it's something that just like um can be
1:35:521 hour, 35 minutes, 52 secondsanything a book um uh video anything that has a link. We can go first and then we'll we'll throw it over to you. Okay.
1:36:001 hour, 36 minutesUh so Terrence, what is your one shop thing? Uh yeah, I just been reading and thinking a lot about inequality in
1:36:071 hour, 36 minutes, 7 secondssociety recently. I mean I read like uh Yo Yo Yinyan's book uh this is what inequality inequality looks like. But
1:36:151 hour, 36 minutes, 15 secondsyou know as a lay person I always think about okay how do I think about inequality? So philosophically like why
1:36:221 hour, 36 minutes, 22 secondsinequality might be bad for society and I came across this book uh called libertarianism the case against extreme
1:36:291 hour, 36 minutes, 29 secondswealth I think by uh Dutch a Dutch author uh Ingred Robin Robines um and
1:36:361 hour, 36 minutes, 36 secondsit's a very intriguing read because it kind of explains step by step like why so much inequality in society is bad bad
1:36:451 hour, 36 minutes, 45 secondsin terms of the climate bad in terms of uh you know socially what what it does to people and psychologically and philosophically like how do we square
1:36:531 hour, 36 minutes, 53 secondsthat with with what what our value systems are as humans. So yeah, I'm still reading it but it's a interesting thing because we always think about it
Chapter 27: One Shiok Thing
1:37:021 hour, 37 minutes, 2 secondsin economic sense right but thinking of it philosophically like why inequality is bad I think that's where it was quite interesting for me. Yeah.
1:37:111 hour, 37 minutes, 11 secondsOkay. Awesome. Um mine is oop um so it's uh I think it's something that Terrence
1:37:171 hour, 37 minutes, 17 secondsyou mentioned um it is uh it is a a homebased business in Singapore. Uh Dr.
1:37:251 hour, 37 minutes, 25 secondsSu I don't know if you have um even a time to notice that now there's a rise of homebased businesses in Singapore.
1:37:311 hour, 37 minutes, 31 secondsUm and I think uh CNA has been featuring quite a few Singapore homebased um people doing stuff like you know
1:37:381 hour, 37 minutes, 38 secondsroasteries or coffee and all. Um, and there's this one uh specifically which I think you went to recently.
1:37:451 hour, 37 minutes, 45 secondsOh, yeah. I I think I I saw it. I saw that CNA documentary. Yeah. So, it's called Hustle in My HDB.
1:37:511 hour, 37 minutes, 51 secondsAnd I mean, just like how I think that the one thing, you know, like what you said, everybody can make a difference. I I like the series because Yeah. It's
1:37:581 hour, 37 minutes, 58 secondsit's not a a cause per se, but it's people, you know, maybe wanting to start a restaurant or cafe, but now they're doing it on their own in their HTB.
1:38:071 hour, 38 minutes, 7 secondsFantastic.
1:38:071 hour, 38 minutes, 7 secondsWhich adds a level of vibrancy, which is very interesting. Of course, there are people who say, "Oh, they should be subject to the same taxes as restaurants and all, but that aside, it's nice that
1:38:161 hour, 38 minutes, 16 secondspeople are being able to pursue what they want in a scale what they want." And for CNA to highlight these individuals cuz I've seen videos of
1:38:231 hour, 38 minutes, 23 secondspeople doing it abroad, but now that they're focusing in Singapore. So, yeah.
1:38:271 hour, 38 minutes, 27 secondsSo, the series is called Hustle in My HB. It's on the CNA insider. And it's just one of those that you're like, "Oh, actually that's cool. There's more
1:38:341 hour, 38 minutes, 34 secondsvibrancy in the community." Are you are you a big coffee drinker? Dr.
1:38:391 hour, 38 minutes, 39 secondsH I love coffee but I can't drink too much.
1:38:411 hour, 38 minutes, 41 secondsOkay. Okay. Okay. But yeah, listen you love coffee. Okay. Cool. And and over to you Dr. I I will recommend this book.
1:38:501 hour, 38 minutes, 50 secondsThis book. Yeah.
1:38:511 hour, 38 minutes, 51 secondsYeah. Because it's written by a young Singaporean. He he won't call himself young but young. And it summarizes why Palestine.
1:39:011 hour, 39 minutes, 1 secondYou know, you listen to me, you go on and on and but we woman. But try to read this. M I think it's pretty normal and he's Singaporean
1:39:091 hour, 39 minutes, 9 secondsand I think it's so important. I read it.
1:39:111 hour, 39 minutes, 11 secondsI endorse it and I didn't endorse it just to keep him happy, but I read it and I think you should read it too.
1:39:181 hour, 39 minutes, 18 secondsWe we have read it as well. Um we we were introduced to it by a comedian actually. Yeah.
1:39:241 hour, 39 minutes, 24 secondsUh we were doing a show with other comedians. Okay.
1:39:261 hour, 39 minutes, 26 secondsAnd it was a comedian who was reading it backstage to kind of help him calm down before his show.
1:39:321 hour, 39 minutes, 32 secondsThis book to calm down center himself. not come down the center himself.
1:39:381 hour, 39 minutes, 38 secondsSo we like okay that's interesting and then you know we we had met professor wid before you know like let's read it and I
1:39:451 hour, 39 minutes, 45 secondsyeah I finished it like within a day pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. One day fantastic.
1:39:501 hour, 39 minutes, 50 secondsYeah. So so that's the the appetizer and then like there's another book to read.
1:39:551 hour, 39 minutes, 55 secondsIf you want to have a broken heart and a sleepless night you read mine.
1:39:591 hour, 39 minutes, 59 secondsYeah because it does go to some very very dark places but but I think both are important reads. Why Palestine reflections from Singapore written by Prof Wallet, previous guest of Yalabad.
1:40:091 hour, 40 minutes, 9 secondsUh but thank you so much Dr. Sui. You're most been a pleasure. Thank you so much.
1:40:141 hour, 40 minutes, 14 secondsAwesome. And again once whenever you're back again if you'd like to jump on uh we we'd love to have you. Okay, cool. Uh and to everyone listening, thank you so much for listening. The
1:40:221 hour, 40 minutes, 22 secondslinks to everything is in the show notes and uh we'll talk to you all very soon. Bye.
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